On today’s episode, I’m chatting with my buddy, Noah Kagan.
If you’d know who he is, you’re in for a treat…
Noah was employee #30 at Facebook, he was an early employee at Mint.com as their Director of Marketing, and he’s the founder of AppSumo and SumoMe.
Noah is a fellow podcaster, hosting a great show called Noah Kagan Presents, which I listen to regularly, and his OkDork.com blog has a ton of meaty/actionable content you can check out.
In this episode, we dive into a bunch of different topics, including…
- why Noah is no longer getting a $1 cost for email signups from his Facebook ads
- how he’s really feeling about Facebook advertising right now (you might be surprised at his answer here!)
- and why you should be looking for what he calls the “20% of marketing opportunities” when trying to decide where to put your focus.
We also cover so much more in this episode. Things like…
…comparing ourselves to others, Noah’s feelings of what true success is and why starting a podcast may not be the best strategy when you’re starting out and trying to build an audience.
You’ll hear Noah talk a lot about how he’s been able to achieve amazing results by setting clear goals, and then testing the things that he knows his team can control.
This overarching conversation will give you lots of new ideas, strategies and things to think about that you can implement in your business –starting today.
On the Show Today You’ll Learn:
- How to create a simple marketing plan for your business, while asking yourself “What is the activity you can double and what is the activity you can kill?”
- Why even though Noah is spending thousands on Facebook ads every month, he still feels like we should be spending most of our efforts elsewhere
- How Noah is currently finding success with marketing strategies that use urgency, and then other alternatives to paid ads like gift cards.
- What a Proactive Dashboard is and how it can be used to find new opportunities
- How Leading Indicator Goals can empower your team and grow your business
- What he’s doing on YouTube (for free!) to see significant bumps in views of older videos
- How he repurposes content and why he’s moving towards longer segments of his podcast to use as YouTube videos
- And more…
Coming up next week I’ll be bringing you a Facebook ads strategy from a listener of the podcast who’s using what he learns from the show to get incredible results for boutique fitness and yoga studios in the Houston, Texas area.
We’re going to break down two recent campaigns; one where he generated $15,000 in class sales on a Facebook ad spend of $50 and another that brought in over $58,000 on a spend of only $330 dollars.
Can’t wait to share that one with you…
FBA Live Announced for December 2017!
I’m super pumped up to announce my upcoming live Facebook ads implementation workshop here in San Diego.
FBA Live is going to start on Thursday evening, December 7th with an opening night happy hour and then we’ll go Friday and Saturday, December 8th and 9th.
As I mentioned this is an implementation workshop so we’ll be actually working on your Facebook ad campaigns together over the two days and we’ll be having conversations around strategy and areas for improvement for your campaigns.
So much has changed with Facebook ads over the last two months, let alone this year, and my goal is to have you walking away with things set up the right way and improvements made.
When you sign-up for the workshop, it will include access to or a large credit toward one of my training programs which you’ll need go through as much as you can prior to the event.
The reason is, I want this workshop to have the biggest impact for you, so it’s not going to be for complete beginners.
If you’re already one of my students, you’re going to get a big-time discount off the cost of the event.
Again, so that we can have the biggest impact on working with you, spots are going to be limited.
You can learn more and grab your spot at rickmulready.com/earlyinterest.
I love doing these live workshops, hanging out with you for a few days and really moving your Facebook ads and business forward.
Links & Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Podcast: Noah Kagan Presents
Podcast Episode: How to 2x Your Business This Year: Lessons from Buying 29 Companies
Video: Noah’s Proactive Dashboard
Video: Content Multiplying
Got A Question You Want Answered On the Podcast?
Ask your questions or let me know if there is a topic or guest you’d like to hear from in the comments below or click here to visit my contact page and submit your question there for a chance to be featured on one of my upcoming Q&A episodes.
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Transcription of Today’s Episode[00:00:06] This is the show where I bring you the best tips tactics and strategies for using paid traffic to grow your business on autopilot. You’ll also hear what’s working and not working right now from the top minds in online marketing so that you can get more leads and sales every day without having to empty your wallet in the process. All right let’s jump into it. [00:00:28] Hey what is up. Everyone welcome back to the art of paid traffic podcast. I am your host Rick Mulready. Really appreciate you forgive me your time today. Hope all is going well. Whatever you’re up to today this is episode number one hundred and sixty. And I am super pumped today to welcome my buddy Noah Caig into the podcast for those of you who don’t know who Noah is he was employee number 30 at Facebook. He was also an early employee at Mint dot com as their Director of Marketing and he’s also the founder of app sumo and sumo me. He’s also a fellow podcast her. He’s got a show called Noah Kagan presents which we talk about here in the show on the show today. And he’s got a Web site called. Ok dork dot com which he regularly puts some really meaty articles on there that are all really actionable. I love reading this stuff over at his site and with no. Today we dive into a bunch of different topics including why he’s no longer getting 1 dollar cost per E-MAIL sign ups from his Facebook ads and what he’s now getting instead. We talk about how he feels about Facebook ads right now and his viewpoint. I have a feeling it’s going to surprise you it’s a little bit different than what we talk about normally here on the show today and the opportunity that exists. And so here we get into what he’s feeling about Facebook ads right now. We talk about why looking for that 20 percent of marketing opportunities is so important for growing your business. [00:01:55] We dive into how to create a simple marketing plan for your business. No it does something real. I mean there’s a lot of things amazingly well but I love how he talks about really simplifying and breaking down a marketing plan for your business and really doubling down on what is working and staying away from what’s not working so we break down what that means for you today. We talk about how Norie purposes content right now in his business. We get into what a proactive dashboard is and how to use leading indicator goals to empower your team and grow your business. That was a topic that I was kind of selfishly really excited about talking to him about and so we dive into that. About three quarters of the way through the interview and then a whole lot more as you can see. We tackle a bunch of different topics and I really hope you like this sort of overarching conversation that I have with Noah today. Just a heads up. There is a little bit of cursing. Toward the end of the interview. So if you are listening to the show here with young ears around you may want to plug in those those earbuds before we do jump into it with no audio. If you’re looking for hands on help with your Facebook ads you are going to want to join me for my FBA live event here in San Diego December 7th eighth and ninth. [00:03:14] I feel alive is my implementation workshop I do this twice a year and we will be actually working on your Facebook ad campaigns together over the two days eight that night because the seventh is an opening night happy hour. And also during that time we’re going to be having conversations about strategy and areas for improvement for your campaigns. So much has changed with Facebook ads over the last two months right. Let alone this year. And so my goal is to have you walking away with things set up the right way and improvements made. If you’re already running Facebook ads right now I want you walking away with suggestions and improvements for how to make your campaigns better so that you’re getting better results and really taking advantage of the platform the way it is right now. Also something new I’m doing for this December workshop. When you sign up for the workshop. It’s also going to include access to one of my training programs which you’ll need to go through as much as possible prior to the event. And the reason I’m doing this is I want this workshop to have the biggest impact for you. And so for that reason it’s not going to be for complete beginners. If you’re already one of my students you are going to get a big time discount off the cost of the workshop or get to come for free. And so again so that we can have the biggest impact on working with you. I’m listening spots to just 40 people at this time I’m recording this. Half the spots are already filled. So the link to go to to get all the details and to reserve your spot is Rick Mulready dot com forward slash f be a live. Rick Mulready dot com forward slash FBA live. I love doing these workshops. [00:04:59] This is something that I said to myself four years ago after I did my very first live workshop in Boston. I was traveling decided to do a live workshop at some random co-working space in Boston. Three people showed up and it was all amazing and I decided from that point forward that I was going to be incorporating live events into my business. I love hanging out with you. I love being able to help you in person so I’m really looking forward to moving your Facebook ads and your business forward here in San Diego in December again that link is Rick Mulready dot com forward slash FBA live. All right without further ado my friends let’s go hang out with no occasion for you. [00:05:42] I notice in our society we don’t like seeing that life is great. I feel like all of us have to like downplay things going well it’s like hey life’s great but you know obviously this is happening too. And like why can’t like just be great and I am not one of these. Gratitude is your attitude or you have to meditate so you can levitate. I was pretty good actually. I’m not one of these like frou frou people but if you actually look objectively or stand outside of your life and if you evaluate it you’re like most of life is really great. If you have like an internet connection and most of the food you need and you’ve got a few good friends like live overall is solid I think there’s only like three aspects of your life like your relationships. [00:06:18] There’s yourself and then use your work. And if so and you can kind of tell it like it will work is off or whatever everyone’s off and what do you want to do about it. And so for me work hasn’t been horrible. I think it’s more clarity and alignment alignment. One of my new favorite words this year is just like are things aligned for where you want to go and are the people you’re working with. Are you in line with them about what you need to have happen. Yup and I feel like it like with our business was similar to a conference and I feel like we’re getting this like insane alignment as a company towards helping certain e-commerce customers. And I’m just like yes. I can’t wait. [00:06:52] And it’s like I feel excited about that is that is that different than what it’s been in the past for you. I mean obviously there’s been certainly times where you’ve felt this but has this is this sort of something that’s like rejuvenated anew over the past like I don’t know a few months or something or or what. Is there something that has. I mean you’re aligned with where you’re heading you’re super excited about what’s going on. Has it been not that way to us certainly this year. That we are in the middle of October now. [00:07:22] So you know sometimes I do worry that other people I work with are going to listen to this and be like wow that was a dick or no as you know because I also I helped represent the company and help lead a company. And so I don’t want them to take anything negatively or like Noah’s doubting so we’re doubting it. But I also you know all of us are human and we all have different things. I think on one hand as a leader of a business or a company you have to like sometimes keep it out of the office. Yup. Sure. Unfortunately keep it out of the office keep it out of slack. Like if you’re negative. Anybody else around you in your business is likely to be negative. So let me let me preface it with that. But I would say what’s been interesting with our company is it’s been one of our harder years in seven years. [00:08:02] And you know on a street like in terms of our growth in terms of our effectiveness in terms of our relationships and I think finally we’ve started we like sat down and took some hard looks about like why is this not working out why are like my partner and I not getting along like we always have he’s one of my best friends. And what the hell are we doing about it. And so today literally we rode out the future of our relationship and I was like. So we you know we worked out the really the future of Sumate calm and then we worked out the exact relationship that we want to have and what the timeline is about. And I’m just like yes. Yes. Like we’re all getting what we want the companies going where we want it to go. And we’re getting on the same page we’re getting that alignment. And so that’s where I’m feeling good today. [00:08:40] Were you or are you like why didn’t we do this sooner. And like you know has it been this way for a little while and you’re like man I wish we done this sooner. Or you like no. You know what. It happens when it’s supposed to and you know at least it happened today. [00:08:54] As humans we justify everything my brother is like an expert in this heat wherever he moves he’s like this is the best city in the world. OK. So he moved to like Eugene Oregon the best. And then he moved to Gilbert Arizona. The best. And then he’s now in Albuquerque New Mexico. Best. I mean Albuquerque is the meth capital of the world. Right right. And I’m just like but what I think you have to do is look someone said this in the can I tell you a quick story for sure. All right I’ll tell you a story of how to look at all this. It’s a Chinese fable about the man and his horse. It’s something Chinese like while shorter although I can not exactly say but like the chance of sorts. [00:09:31] So there’s a man and his horse and his horse is sick and everyone else in his in his town goes to war and he goes to father he goes father this is a curse. My horse is sick and now I’m not a man in the whole town has less respect for me because I’m not going to war. And everyone in the war. A week later dies every single person in war dies and he goes to his father. Oh man what a blessing because the horse is sick now I’m alive. And the father says Well it sounds like a blessing but maybe it’s a curse when the guy goes OK. And now because he’s the only man left in town he becomes the mayor and he gets to make all these decisions and he goes to his father says Father the mayor what a great blessing this is amazing. And the father goes it’s a blessing but maybe it’s a curse. And then he you know a week later he’s mayor and he’s running the town. But these bandits come to town they say who’s in charge here and they end up jabbing him and he’s like oh. And he goes his father says Father this is such a curse. You know it’s it’s so horrible I just got shanked and if I was you know maybe it maybe it’s a blessing and it I feel like I do in my Jewish voice. So the next week he’s in the hospital. He just got shanked and he ends up falling in love with this nurse and he goes his father is his father. What a blessing I’ve got this nurse. [00:10:48] I’m in love now. Fuzzes Well you know maybe it’s a curse maybe it’s a curse. [00:10:52] So anyways the whole point of this story is that in every instance there’s a blessing and then there’s a curse. And so I made up that whole story by the way. [00:11:01] It’s not really. Yeah. Did you make it up as you’re going along. Yes. There’s friction with it. Yeah that was a quick comment. So you can do it too. [00:11:09] So whenever you tell someone the story of the man and his horse which is a true fable in Chinese lore but you make up how it progresses. Olga I think that the real takeaway in everything we do in life in business and their thing that’s really impacted me and I this a story I can’t. I just heard it a few months ago and I just can’t let it go because I think things are good where it is like always everything’s always great. And I don’t think you should look for the bad but the more important part for me is when things are bad. Like I just got stabbed or I didn’t get a go with my horse. [00:11:36] What’s the blessing in that moment. I love you. So I think there’s a real powerful message where like when things are tough which is inevitable Where is the blessing in that curse and where is the opportunity to learn and grow in so that that’s where it is with me. This year it’s like what I like to go back and change it yeah. But with all of this I think it’s made us in this curse or in this challenge is to make us stronger for the future. [00:11:58] I love that. And I’m impressed that you made that up as you went along and but it completely makes sense it hits home. I think any time you can tell a story like that to paint a picture and to drive a point home it’s always more powerful now. We kind of jumped right into it here. And you mentioned you know during that what you’re saying as far as your business is go there are a few people a few listeners who don’t necessarily know who you are and your background and I’ve just talked about it in the intro here but can you share sort of in your own words you know who you are your background and what you’re up to these days. [00:12:36] Yeah. You know all of us have some super skill or super power whether you realize it or not and if you don’t know it just text your best friend and say hey what do you think my superpower is and they’ll tell you it. And so my superpower and my career is that I am a promoter. And so what I’ve done in my career has found things that I wanted to promote and gotten involved with them. And my recent company that I helped start a few years ago was at assumer where we literally promote products that we like and we promote small business products so like a group for geeks and I literally get paid to go find amazing products and now the team does it and we promote it and so Sumitra. Is our latest business which we give people the tools to promote themselves. So really longer on your own email list and marketing and that’s that’s where our business is now. [00:13:23] Nice and you’ve grown I mean these business obviously grown really really quickly. You’ve built a team you know down there you’re based out of Austin you built the team. Are you all based in Austin by the way. Or do you have any any virtual team members. [00:13:38] Yes. We’ve evolved over years to give some context because sometimes know that helps and I’m not. This is not bragging I just want you people like the size of it. I think there’s around 60 of us and it’s a pretty healthy eight figure business overall. And so we have we originally sort out just me in Virtual I guess number it was just me and then we were all virtual and then we were all in the office and now we’re a hybrid of about 80 85 percent are in Austin Texas 15 percent are all over the world. And then most of them will fly in once every three months. OK. And then twice a year we’ll do retreats. So this year the sure was we did win actually in Texas but lacerate to Chicago at the end of the year we go to generally we’ll retreat to Mexico or this year we’re going somewhere else where she can announce next where I’m told the team. [00:14:21] OK. We won’t tell anybody. No I just love surprise. You know one thing that I like. I love surprises in life. I hate surprises in business. Yes. Like hey no I quit. Hey no we spent more money on this than we thought. I’m like I don’t want that surprise right or I don’t but my lawyers. I hate my lawyers. Why. Because every bill is a surprise. Yeah it’s like well guess what this month it’s oh oh. Like what did you do. I was right surprised in life good spreads and business bad. [00:14:50] You were at Facebook very early on and I definitely want to talk about you know some Facebook advertising here today with you obviously being at one of the one of the very very early employees at Facebook. You saw what was going on on the ad platform. I mean very early on. And it’s evolved like you know a hundred times over since then saying over the past two weeks it’s evolved. But I know that you still do a lot of Facebook ads. I know you have somebody on your team that handles your Facebook ads. I know they have to spend a certain amount of money per week on you know ad campaigns and certainly you know testing different things out. I have a note here that you were getting around a dollar Sign-Up dollar cost per lead on your sign up. Are you still doing that. No. Where are you now. And before we even get into like sort of the strategy like what you’re doing where are you at where are you at now. Because one of the questions of getting people are freaking out. They’re like Holy cow my costs are going up you know. And it’s like yeah they’ve been going up for the past couple of years and especially this time of year I mean not only are these separate Good luck. Yeah I mean not only are we having you know the competition on the platform is so much greater than it’s always been but now we’re getting now we’re in the holiday season. [00:16:07] You know a couple more weeks and it’s game on for holidays so costs are going to go up even more. What are what are you seeing on your side from that standpoint. [00:16:15] So a few things. One the dollar and what I’ve realized for a lot of people that are buying traffic. I think you have to understand your overall costs so you might be doing retargeting But is that because they came from an original ad which means your actual cost is going to be higher. For me what I know is that my cost is so on my personal OK direct mailing list at a subscriber is generally costing me around $4. Okay. And there’s not a ton of talk about strategies in general I tell you what I can tell you exact opportunities. And then on Sumate l.com which is our software product we focus more on an e-mail or a registration which has been varied from five to $20. Gotcha. And that’s to get someone actually read. That doesn’t mean that they activate. That doesn’t mean they become a customer. That’s what I’d like. It gets very expensive yeah. [00:16:58] But the thing about with that with you is that you do know those numbers you know the costs to get you know not only to get them in the door but also that the value and you know how many people you have to get in the door which you know the percentage of those people then turns into paying customers and so forth. And I mean the evolution of the Facebook platform especially over the past six months has really come to what we’re talking about here with that is like you really need to know your numbers. You really need to know their value. Because you know the algorithm has gotten so smart and you can you know you can optimize for the value and stuff like that. But I think like I’m glad to hear you say that here in the show that you’re looking at anywhere between five and $20. Because some people are thinking I’m sure they’re listening going holy cow like really like oh these numbers that I’m seeing aren’t that bad. They’re the days of a dollar 50 cent cost probably granted certainly still happening with people. Yes. Probably over you know. [00:17:54] So I think that’s actually. I agree with you. And what I think people need to do so how I’ve been successful in marketing or how it’s worked for lapsing what are com with what O’Connor you know Mint.com is that the opportunity comes not when you’re playing in a marketplace. What do you mean by that. So the reason why is Facebook’s sense of it is because everyone is advertising on Facebook. Yup. OK. So here’s an example this is really interesting on Facebook for sumo dot.com or for like you know OK or dot.com or my YouTube channel I’m paying like a dollar and click. And so you have to go and say well one who who is not advertising right that is an opportunity. So are there WordPress plugins you can advertise on other blogs you can advertise on. Can you sponsor clicks on Instagram people directly. And so for example I posted on LinkedIn in the status update blah blah blah blah blah. Here’s a link. Whether you’re here or whatever who cares. And I got 600 clicks and that may not seem like a lot but if you’re buying Facebook ads. Yes 600 clicks a dollar twenty five CPC or whatever your cost per click is right. That’s a seven hundred dollar return like $7 and click value. I just got from one post it took me a few minutes and well no he’s got a following. [00:19:04] Besides the point the point is is that what I’d like to do is I spent a lot of my time on the course stuff that I had been working but the opportunity comes in that like 20 percent experimentation stuff. So for me it was like Corra Linked-In. Even crazier strategies on Facebook but your real growth in the success of it is not going to be coming doing it in the marketplace. That’s what I like so I’ve always looked for like with Mint.com. I went unsponsored personal finance bloggers directly and that’s how for 500 bucks a month. I got insane results. We met at ffin con that I sponsored ffin con for a thousand. [00:19:36] I hope he doesn’t mind for a thousand bucks. Really this is a few years ago. Is not valid. Now it’s like now he’s like he doesn’t even talk to me anymore. He won’t respond to my text messages. Wait does it all or is I do it again. Exactly like a sponsor for a thousand bucks. [00:19:50] And he went and promoted me to the list and it drove me tons of clicks. Why. Because it wasn’t something he ever did before. Yeah. And so I just want encourage people is that your opportunity is not going to come going to Facebook where you’re going to compete against. You know I think between an absolute sumo or somewhere in the range of three or four thousand a day OCHA and spend now. And we’re like you know a day and you spend in word nothing. You realize that like they don’t even give us a personal account anymore or like we don’t have an account manager you know three or four kids. Yeah. I’m just going to give you an idea. So like now think about Coca-Cola or Amazon or any of these guys. Yeah. So you have to go to these new channels and new opportunities or other conferences you can go sponsor maybe Meetup groups is your opportunity. Maybe there’s still some something left on Reddit like not as many people are saying on Reddit but you have a lot of traffic and very targeted Geo categories or interest categories. So my point I’m try to get do the Facebook thing but commit 20 percent of your budget to just crazy. [00:20:44] Yup I like that. I like that. Now when you are doing stuff on Facebook what are some of the things that you’re doing that you are seeing that are that successful. [00:20:54] Not much to be on. So remember one lot of people are talking about chat bot. You know if you actually look at what your cost per Chaput is it’s really high. And people like I got to $4. It’s like probably not. Here’s the other thing with this chat thing what happened when you built up your Facebook page. Now you have a thousand or 10000 Facebook people. Yes. Oh wow. I have to pay more money to even target these people that I’ve already paid to get and I have to let Facebook choose if they can see him or not. So I don’t really like the idea of building up a chat but that Facebook’s going to say oh yeah I want to talk to him. Now you have to pay again. Right. Correct. That seems crazy town in Visalia I’m not seeing on our site a ton of results. OK. Absoute was having a lot of success because it’s like a direct purchase. It’s like if there is some urgency like with someone like hey there’s a date to buy this product. Yeah. That actually works really well so I’d say if you’re doing ads is there any timeframe you’re doing. The second one this is an experiment but there’s something really crazy about it and it’s working kind of well actually working really well. We’re giving an incentive if you buy something from us we give you a $25 Amazon gift card. Oh really. So ICCA at the end of the day and so we did it and I was like well what’s our cost per customer. [00:22:02] It was like seven dollars our normal cost to a paying customer was like $200. OK. And I’m like OK something is weird. Right right right. So point being is that that may not work long term. I think you have to if you’re doing to go play in these marketplaces and it’s already tapped you. You can’t do you can’t win playing the same game as everyone else. [00:22:21] Yeah. Yeah I mean you I know that you have your Facebook Ads person I’m sure. I don’t know what else they’re doing but that person who’s responsible for your Facebook as you kirtan if I’m wrong but they have a certain budget that like a goal they have to hit every every week. Right. And part of that if I’m not mistaken is they need to experiment with some different experiment with some different things. Is that all within Facebook or are we talking about that 20 percent like you’re talking about and looking at other platforms other avenues where maybe kind of untapped resources right now with Sumitra calm and apps it’s still within Facebook. [00:22:59] But when it was just me doing it. Yes I think you should actually spent almost the majority time not doing the Facebook on Facebook and Twitter and these guys and Google have scale and it’s great. But you are always going to be law harder. So I would spend my time on Reddit. I would sometimes sponsoring direct. I would just try anything that there’s already people on like or other directories or other newsletters like are there anybody who’s got a blog. I mean there’s just a lot of different angles. I think that you actually get a better return. So like one thing that we did just as an idea. So at the end the day it’s it’s money and a return that’s what you have. Yeah. And it’s choosing where to talk. Should you hire. And I think what you ought to think about is that what’s the goal I want and is it better to hire someone instead. Is it better to just you know someone say this to me recently and I really liked it as like look when you stop spending money on your Facebook ads. It goes away. But let’s say you took that $2000 and paid someone to write a blog post. There’s a theoretical chance that that $2000 can drive way more customers just take a little bit longer over similar you know over a long period of time. But you always have that article and I was like kind of interesting because you always have that the garden keeps paying for itself. Sure. [00:24:03] Another extreme example we did was like I bought WordPress plugins about two years ago. So I either spend money on ads or I bought these plug ins updated them and put our links in them. And then people actually came and found out about Sumate come through that. And that was a huge way that we got a lot of people finding out about us. [00:24:18] What are some different ways that like. So again people can I can sort of hear people listening right now and saying OK we’ll know where no one knows where to look for these types of things. I think these are great ideas but what would you say to somebody who’s like all right you know where would I kind of look for these other opportunities that might be relevant for my business. [00:24:38] Who’s that. Give me a business. Give me someone specific. [00:24:41] I mean people who are our listeners are all over the board you know local businesses online businesses people were just starting out with their with their advertising and growing their business to you know a lot more. [00:24:52] You know let’s just say a local yoga studio locally which I love it. [00:24:57] I love it. Namath’s day. Come on Rick. I love that. I’d say it’s you up on that one. Not completely unintentionally. OK. [00:25:05] So if I was a local local Hugo’s studio what most people would give advice for is like going Yelp and buy their sponsored listing. You know I didn’t damn like I don’t know how many people actually like good restaurants or good yoga places do that. So from a paid trip is it just only it is my only tactic paid traffic. No not necessarily. I think that’s the thing that people have to consider is that with that same amount of money to have an outcome of a short amount of customers what are the other alternatives. Number one is there. Could you partner with a juice place and give them money to say hey go to my yoga place. Right. So kind of do a complimentary promotion. I think another thing is could you give away your thing for free like so. I mean you do the free classes. I’m talking of other things I would sponsor sponsor meet ups. One thing you can do as a yoga studio as well as you can host things. So pay someone who’s well-known to host events there or get them to host their events there. I think the overall part that I like to do is how I will just bring it up right now. I’ll send you a screenshot of it the way that I’ve done this is that you do a thing called a proactive dashboard Yes that’s on my list to talk to you about. OK. And this is how we interview people who say well how do I find the new opportunities the way we do. I don’t hope for it. [00:26:12] I tell you I don’t like surprise I don’t like surprises and I don’t like hope. Yep. So we do a proactive dash word so each week. Let’s take David for instance David is responsible for doing two email marketing tests on my web site on OK article. OK. And we do the same thing for Sumate comments seems like formula. And so he is responsible for doing two tests. And so the thing I would encourage or want is you have to make it a habit each week and not be accountable so every week I’m going to go look for one new place. So let me it even more related to traffic each week. Dean who does he has. He’s a full time promotions person. He’s got a spot I’ll just tell you what he has to do. He has to spend $2500 a week in Facebook ads. He’s got to post once ancora twice he’s got to send me podcast e-mails and five to five posts linked in with me and that is because he and every week we may add more to this and we’ll probably add another experiment like he used to do Pinterest and he used to do like he used to do 10 ancora and the biggest point is that like make it part of your process and each week you’re experimenting seeing what works doing more of it seeing what’s not working like core. We turned it down because we didn’t see anything from it. Pinterest turned it down because we have not seen any from it but other people I know like you know Bob loaded. Loves loves Pinterest. [00:27:28] Or guess post we were only supposed to like men. It’s a lot of work for not a great return. And so I think the thing is you have to just make it a routine to try experiments. And you so you’ll actually start looking for them. [00:27:37] Yeah I like that because I mean you have you have these goals and it’s like all right well we can’t super you know control whether we hit these goals or not but we can identify things that we think can help us get to that goal. And you’re talking about these practice practice dashboard. I think he called like these leading indicator goals right so that you know at the end of the week. OK. Did Dean do this like Dean spent twenty five hundred dollars did he spend twenty five hundred dollars. Yes or no. If he didn’t why didn’t he. And then look at the results from that. That’s such a that’s something that we that I think I originally heard from you on your podcast which we’re going to talking about here shortly. Thanks for that. I heard on your show and I was like oh that’s really smart. I want to incorporate that into mind so we started to do that ourselves where each person I mean my team just basically doubled in size in the past two weeks on a day to day basis. They have a lot of that while I’m working with them right now on setting up this proactive dashboard to having these leading indicator goals. Each person is responsible for one thing. I mean there’s an overarching goal like like podcast downloads for example. And but here are the here are the things that we can try to do that we think are going to get us that are hold on and get us there. [00:28:50] Well yeah I think you know because I’ll tell you and I think I said it in my podcast it felt like I was playing a game I couldn’t win. And a lot of the metrics that we look at are it’s already after the fact. It’s like how much did I spend. Right it’s like that’s happens generally that happens after. But how many things I can control like I can control experiments I can control trying one new ad channel a week or for like our advertising a full time person at CNN.com. She is responsible for five AB tests on our ads each week and she’s responsible for five ad sets each week. So it’s part of her process to and she’s force and then she has to say non-force in a negative sense are easily encouraging her to do these activities that will create bigger results for us by things that we can control. Yeah I love that. [00:29:31] And then you’re like you’re revisiting at the end at the what I think you eat don’t you guys meet on Mondays. [00:29:36] We meet every Monday so for example here’s another one I think you’ll like and it’s relevant for a lot of people buying traffic. So we’re growing. Oh my my hobby my personal suffrages my YouTube. We have brainin who’s a bizarre editor he’s awesome. He’s responsible for one thumbnail refresher week and one video test a week. I don’t care what he does. Yeah but it has to tie towards our goal so our goal we’re finalising it for 2018 but it’ll probably be either watch time or subscribers. And as long as they have a clear goal then it’s like do whatever you want and what do you’re refreshed each week do your test each week and see how it affects towards our goal. Yeah. What’s the what’s the video refresh what do you mean by that. So we found. So this is a we’ve tried a lot. That’s actually it. We had other things he used to do and now he doesn’t do those anymore. So we’re making a difference but we found just changing our title in our thumbnail. OK I want an older videos like gave him significant bumps. And you do it. Surprisingly here let me pull up some of the stats you can see it. [00:30:30] So you’re looking. You’re looking at the analytics that are right within YouTube they’re looking at it from. OK you’ve had it you’ve had this current you know title and thumbnail for a certain period of time and then you change it out and just basically see what the differences. [00:30:43] Yeah so we all tell you but I’m not sure and externally without too many other people. What we do is we take titles and we make them as Facebook ads and then we see which one gets the high C.P.R. and we use that title on our YouTube. Interesting. And so that one has worked really well. So you can maybe test it from that to the title missing something more complicated that I’m willing to do right now. But doing some of these refreshes I mean I can I’ll send you the example or do the refreshes like we’ll see we get a big spike because people come and then plateau is higher. OK. Gotcha. Gotcha. [00:31:18] I’m glad we’re able to talk about that because like I said I did list that out. I think that’s super smart as far as having these leading indicator goals having. I know that you guys use or I don’t know if it’s change but just simple Google Docs like you don’t need an elaborate system to be able to do this you just list them out. Did it happen did it not. I think you color coordinated it right whether like Red is bad Green is good or something like that. And you just revisit it at the end are when you’re having your posts. [00:31:43] So I posted it for you in our chat here so that you can actually see what a sample of it looks like. OK. So we’ve built complicated dashboard so here’s like another compeers more of a complicated one. OK. I’ll send you an example. Basically it’s like putting all this data. Does all this stuff. And we’re actually like this the first thing that l.com we’re actually going back to just like a Google spreadsheet because I think there’s something there. My partner Chad has said it and I like it which is is there something there about actually manually checking something versus just like having things automatically done with my finances. I used to work at Mint.com and I helped a lot of the first people or i still manually checked my finances once a month. Weight you don’t balance her checkbook to. That. OK. I don’t really budget or anything like that. [00:32:25] I’m just going to be very impressive you actually go in there and budget or balance her checkbook. [00:32:30] Who uses a checkbook. My mom still does she is. My mom does too. I was home a few weeks ago and she was like paying a bill like what are you doing right now. She was like oh I’m paying I’m setting and then I feel I’m like don’t you do that online. Oh no no no. So use the checkbook. [00:32:47] One thing I want to wrap up here but one thing that I should say another thing that I’ve been super impressed and you’ve been talking about this for a while now and really simplifying a marketing plan. Again I know that you love to do a google docs again really keeping it simple but what are some ways that people can create a marketing plan that’s really simplified you know breaking it down. And I love how you look at these things and say OK what’s working and what can I double down on. And then what can I kill off after that. You know what’s not working it’s not getting the results I’m just going to stop doing that. [00:33:27] So it’s funny you say that we just have done that in our business and I can give you concrete examples the way and we’re actually we’ve really changed our marketing goal but the plan is always the same the strategy of the strategy of how I set up the plan is always exact same so presume that our com are targeting e-commerce businesses and that clarity of customer actual Tovarish and listening if you don’t have a specific customer targeting do that right now. Just pick one person get up everybody else for six months 12 months and just go hardcore on one. The second thing though is have a goal. So far that we have a certain amount of customers we need to sign up each month. And so let’s just say let’s just keep it simple let’s say it’s 100. I literally and I can pull it up. Everyone on our team knows it. I go over every single Monday with our team and it says if we need to hit 100. Where the hell is that coming from. So right now the 100 should come from our more content marketing team our advertising team our e-mail marketing and our platform marketing like targeting WordPress. And so each of those teams is responsible for a certain amount of those sign ups and then every Monday we just check how they’re doing against it. And it just keeps things really straightforward. One new thing I’m implementing. That’s what I like and I would encourage people to do is creating one page or strategy docs for how they’re going to hit it meaning. [00:34:45] So let’s take our content marketing he has to do let’s just say 50 sign ups this month. If he were to die tomorrow I don’t want him to die. I really love Chris. But if you were to get hit by like a giant whale or something eats him. The question becomes like what was his strategy. And I just it shouldn’t be a ton of pages. But what is your strategy to be able to hit those 50 up for them and just write them down on one page. Got it. So that’s somebody else could pick that up if necessary. Exactly. I was like well if he leaves I don’t know what his real strategy is. And that’s especially as you double triple your team you get to 10 20 40 50. The biggest thing is businesses grow that I’ve noticed is a communication goes down because it’s hard to know who’s doing what and how things are happening. [00:35:26] That’s a great point. Tell me about your podcast man. [00:35:31] I I started listening to and I want to hear. My understanding is that you wanted to test it out and you give yourself I don’t know what would you say three three six months or something like that. And the show’s no occasion presents you and I’m not just telling you this because I’m looking at you face to face and I’m talking right now but your show is on the short list of episodes that I have podcast that you listen to every week. And this is what happens though when I listen to your show I start listening to it and I go man I got it cause I’m always doing something it’s always like going on. I’m like walking or whatever I like. I’m like I’ve got to stop. I have to pause this because I have to find something to write down like write with or take notes with. And it happened with YouTube episodes. So it was like part one and part two and I get into it I was like that man I can’t listen to this now because I need to be super ready to be taking tons of notes because that’s how actual It was. Another recent one that is really really good. And I took a note of it to hear how to grow your business to a million dollars and beyond. And what I love about your approach on there and pretty much exactly how we’re talking here is everything’s really simplified. You know it’s broken down like this is what you know. [00:36:47] You either have ideas or you’re talking to somebody that you brought onto the show and you’re sharing what you’re doing in your own business and breaking it down and saying like this go do this. And that’s I mean like I like I’ve I’ve found myself multiple times being like oh I’ve got to stop because I have to like I’m going to come back to this take notes. And here I am bringing you know taking a big outline I can bring into my own business start testing start testing out so what. What’s it what’s it been like for you because you’ve been doing it for a few months now and this test as has an in my view been a big success for you but how’s it been for you. [00:37:22] Thank you for the compliment. I think once sometimes in business you don’t really hear anything you just like put stuff out you like yes. Yes. And so I think it’s nice one of my my incursions for people is that if you’re ever struggling just go help one person or go talk to someone you’ve worked with and generally you feel better. You know the rule of one thing to success is also very relative. Like I said I was on like that guy is killing it or that woman is making so much money. And then you know I’m like you never know. You never know. So I know it’s hard because then I get jealous and like oh he’s making his money but it’s like you know he’s now divorced and other things are bad anyways. Right. Makes you yourself is happy I think with my encouragement there. It’s been you know I’d say from to your audience at the art of paid traffic. Yeah. From a marketing perspective it is the worst marketing channel you could ever do. So think about this. There’s you know 100 percent of the people on earth. How many of them have smartphones. How many of them know how the podcasts app how many of them like choose podcasts and how many of them they actually going to listen to in reality so like basically you have no one. [00:38:22] You know I think that you know think about this a lot. One of the top 10 podcasts is Joe Rogan. Know how many downloads does he get an episode. Millions. It’s about a million. Oh is it really. One million one million per episode. Yeah. That’s less than what I thought it would be. I thought it would be. I mean that’s that’s a lot but I would still lost a lot. [00:38:42] I mean he’s super famous. He’s on TV he’s been on shows all his stuff. Everyone knows him and he’s he’s one of the top 10. So just to give you context like that is how small the market is. And then secondly when you’re listening to a podcast you listen to when you go for a walk or when you’re doing your yoga or whatever you know you have it as a part of your day. And there’s generally not going to be more time for that you’re probably not going to commute longer. Oh right. You’re going to the gym for two hours so there is a zero sum game where like if you want to win someone’s attention you have to take it away from someone else. And so what I’ve noticed from within with marketing and creating a podcast is a few different things. Number one it’s generally the channel that people are not going to find out about you. So it’s people it’s where people it’s where your most loyal customers want to find out more about you. It’s not your gateway drug your gateway drug is going to be a blog. It’s going to be when you’re interviewed It’s when you’re when you’re guest posting is going to when you’re tweeting or maybe other things if you’re starting out. But I think a lot of people are like they want to get an audience like I’m a sort of podcast going audience I’m like how does an hour I would start. Yeah. [00:39:45] It’s it’s been good for it’s been good for me. I actually do hear from a lot of people like I found you recently I found you know through I don’t know you know came across and I’m in and oftentimes I will be like they’ll message me on Facebook so I’m always curious to find out like like how did you find me. You know like you started listening to the show like well how did that happen. And what do they say. You know a lot of it is just searching on you know iTunes or they hear like just like this like Oh they’ll get it you know you might have people come over from that are listeners of AAPT here come over to your show because like oh I heard you on on Rick Mulready show. Well that happens to me a lot as well. And you know so obvious I mean you obviously know this but the more that you can be on other shows I think it helps too honestly with the like I don’t have any proof to this maybe you know maybe you know about this but I think that there’s something to you being on other podcasts that does help with the Apple algorithm of the rating of your own show. I don’t have to prove that but I don’t know. It’s just I don’t know maybe a conspiracy theory that I think well he’s right. [00:40:51] Yes. I’m I’m not disagree with that and I do think people probably found you found me. I think in terms of lessons and takeaways for other people experiment in the podcast or thinking about it. Number one with marketing might want what you want to do in marketing is you want to be able to do an activity and see a result. And for the most part with marketing I feel like I do it with podcast I do a bunch of things and I never see any I can’t tell. I don’t know if you noticed it yourself. Like all it you know my mailing lists I have 150000 people on my mailing lists I email them saying Go check out this podcast and the downloads number doesn’t change. So that could also be that my audience hates me. You know they just sell it. They don’t they don’t like me whatsoever which is good. It’s totally possible. Could be but unlikely but my point though is that like I think that’s not where I want to spend time where it’s like mystery. I don’t want this like I do stuff and I’m not sure I’ll come sir. Number two I think you have to figure out your niche or your angle. So there’s a lot of interview shows there’s a lot of shows. I think you have to think about what is your angle and what’s already working. So what is working is NPR. They own eight or nine out of the top 10 of them are like one of their subsidiaries or some spin off of them or someone who used to work for them. [00:42:02] So I think more people need to think about they’re the best. And why don’t I try to do things that they’re doing which was shorter almost all their shows are less than 30 minutes you know. And most of their shows are story based. Yeah. And so that’s something that I’ve tried to get better at which is just like I spend at my shows like most of my shows are 20 minutes and they are normally edited for between five to 15 hours. Like it’s an insane amount of editing that we do now on these episodes. [00:42:28] I was going to ask you about that. Did you have to spot it did you have to find like a specialty type of editor to do that. [00:42:34] So. Well what happened. What I originally thought what happened was that it would be really easy and it would grow really fast. And I had to go 100000 downloads an episode and then I’ve been stuck with. Every business gets stuck. That’s part of that. If you can get through this stuff then you win. That’s kind of the way I look at it now. And I’ve been stuck around like I think 20000 an episode and it’s great and I feel very fortunate. And I’m like happy that people listen to it and I think the key thing with that is that I enjoy it. Yeah like I actually enjoy like even if no one listen or if. No I mean no money which I don’t make any money with it. It’s still like isn’t a fun thing. So I think the key thing overall with me is obviously look at what works in marketing which for me the only thing with podcast has been getting people on my mailing list to find out about it. So I have it in my auto responder or getting on other shows. And secondly like Secondly how to make it sustainable. So how do I do this for the next five years. Yeah. And I think in the beginning I started doing all the shows that were not sustainable nor were there some that I could really do on a reasonable basis for a longer time. [00:43:37] And I want to kind of finish up this point here and we’ll wrap up here in a minute. But you do a really good job of taking episodes that you do on the podcast and repurposing that content on your YouTube channel. And I don’t remember the guy’s name but I know that you know the name the episode. Here’s how to add two extra business this year lessons from buying 29 companies. I think it’s a buddy of yours. Don’t remember the guy’s name but then you did and I listen to that episode. But then I saw videoke pop up on your YouTube channel where you talked about I think it was like his hiring grid and it was just a cool little short little video. That was a clip from the podcast but it was teaching this one point that he was trying to make. So you’re leveraging the content you’re really leveraging the content based on from the podcast onto other channels you have yeah we call it contemn multiplication. [00:44:27] So let me finish the editing thing. I’ll give it away software software. I use Trinkle. Com. It’s I don’t know if you would you recommend. Yeah. Yeah. I learned this from you. Yeah I like great. Dude it’s 12 bucks an hour. And so we took all of our podcast and then I try to just pick it even when you know one thing I did that was really help was I used to do these shows and I have 20 questions and if I was talking to Rick I like Rick already. Here’s your 20 questions. Go and order. Now I only pick three and every show I just take those three and then we go on wild tangents. But it stays to those three themes because I think people generally will take as you said a few major takeaways from different things. Sure. So. And then in terms of editing we basically created a template where we get the print outline and then we write out the intro the outro the three major takeaways and then we basically go through and this is actually an honor. If you do this. But what I do is that I listen to the episode and I read the outline and then I build the parts that I paid attention to paid attention to while you’re listening. [00:45:27] Yeah okay. So I’m listening to it. And then there’s parts that I’m like oh keep going Oh and then I delete basically I’ll delete everything else in the show. Oh OK. OK. And so the whole show now if you see it’s only 20 minutes that’s after it took an hour and a half talk. Yeah. Because really there’s only like 20 minutes of like oh you know like that. And then so cut the rest of the fat out. [00:45:49] And so and then I I’ve done that enough times that I pass it off to someone now who does that instead of me. Gotcha. And so that’s what I found and I think in all aspects it’s like what’s actually the most important parts. [00:46:01] And really just showcasing those now again this is selfish question was this a specialty type of editor. [00:46:07] Oh no not at all. So I had an audio editor who was doing to embarrass the show. And a lot of times an audio editor is really looking for the audio. Like I would do a show and I’m like do that was garbage and he’s like that was a great show. But he’s only measuring it by the audio quality. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with him. And so here’s what I would recommend. Find someone who you that listens to your show and can give you straight feedback about it. And and this is what the NPR guy did for me. Haven’t listened to your show and then do time stamps when they paid attention I like it. OK. Or you do. So what I would do if I were you I would actually do it with your own show like here the time stamps. And then now you have enough of those episodes when you find someone you like this is how I like to do it. So I’ve passed it off recently to David and he did a few episodes and I love David he’s like literally my favorite person right hand man he’s amazing for me. And he’s actually in San Diego with you. That was. OK. And you should meet him actually because he can talk to you about our process that I’ll put in touch after the article and take a note to do that. And so what David was doing he was he was making them almost too meaty like to he would cut the fat out of every. It was just no fat. [00:47:14] OK. A little bit of fat man that’s like a steak. You know you’ve got to stick that little fat in. Right. The story that’s part of the story telling. Yeah it’s a joke. It’s not all of it but a little bit of the fat. [00:47:25] And with David what he did is he edited one and he got a torrent transcript edited it and then I left comments about what I would have changed so that he can start so I did for two episodes and then he so he can understand like you know we could find that middle ground. Sure sure. [00:47:40] I love it. I want everybody to go check out your podcast. Noah Kagan presents your YouTube channel. Is it just no occasion on YouTube yet. [00:47:51] The constant multiplication just that not for everyone. So the contemn multiplication. The idea is like what I was doing for the first few months the years I create a separate video in a separate podcast and a separate blog post and then a separate social media. And so now David organized all of it. We have basically everything the podcast was our number one goal is my hobby this year. So we create a podcast then from that I’ll take the content and make a video or video it or will take it and make a video. Gotcha. From there we send the transcript to a writer who writes not only shown us I think because no one reads them. So we actually create a standalone article that even if you never listen to anything you can digest it and it’s still something you would share. Sure. Then that article goes to another guy who creates all the social media stuff for it. So all the OK postings on LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook. So basically just like a checklist that we go through. But I think what most people do is they take a video and make it into a podcast and make it be shown an article and then have a crappy image. And I think you have to cater to the medium. So if its a video like those like to be digested versus an audio is going to be different. [00:48:57] Yup. Now when you do the video real quick do you. Is it really I mean us to say you have a 20 minute podcast episode. That video though is only a couple of minutes right. Are you just really condensing down to the major points or what does that look like for you. [00:49:12] So weve experimented with two things. We used five or dot.com and we used go animate dot com to create those videos. OK. What I’m noticing is that it depends on your goal. But YouTube’s goal is to get people to spend their whole day watching videos. Sure. So if you’re trying to grow your exposure on YouTube you have to give them what they want so you get what you want and what they want is long videos. Why. Because the longer they’re there the longer they’re watching the more YouTube gets their ad revenue and that they when they don’t face. So what I’m moving towards more of my YouTube channel is taking longer segments or at least 10 minutes. And you know obviously to be mostly good but basically take my 10 favorite minutes of the podcast or two five minute parts and make that animated video or just me talking about it and then adding in some video edits around that cool. [00:49:55] I love it. Dude this is really good. I mean you’ve really just sort of peel back the curtain on a lot of stuff that you’re doing I should things I haven’t shared publicly. I really appreciate that. And I know this is really really going to be well received by AAPT nation here I’m trying to get that to stick. I don’t know if it’s going to stick. Pete what do you do that. Do you like that. I like it. I mean I like you know I like the acronym of you know for A.O. PTA but I use that the other day on an interview they’re like what did you say. Like well you know I’m working on it trying to get it to stick. So so no occasion presents. OK dork dotcom. Where else do you. Where else can people connect with you man. [00:50:34] Rule number 1 or 2. Check out our businesses at Sumate l.com group on for geek’s or someone accom free tools or email list. And then me check and I mean. I mean I didn’t get enough attention in high school so that’s why I do all the stuff basically. OK. Noah Kagan pitons podcast. OK and YouTube are OK dork dot com if you like reading. [00:50:51] Yeah really good articles and your articles are meaty in there meaning like there is like if you’re going to go there be ready to learn stuff and you’re there actionable. It’s like all right here’s the like step by step how to do whatever it is that you’re talking about. So I will link everything up here in that in that show notes page that no one’s going to go to. For today’s episode no I really appreciate you come on here. [00:51:14] Thank you for having me. I’ll see you. I’ll be there in November. So you’re going to get nominated. Yes. [00:51:18] OK. [00:51:18] Sounds good rather right I hope this talk here with no is really helpful for you if you’re interested in creating a business around managing Facebook ads for other businesses. I’ve got some really helpful content both available for you right now and I’ve got some live online trainings coming up starting on November 13th. I’ve been doing a bunch of Facebook lives over on my Facebook page talking about a bunch of different topics related to creating and growing a Facebook ads business. And you can check those out over on my Facebook page which you can get to by simply go into Rick Mulready dot com forward slash Facebook page and we’ll be continuing to do these Facebook lives over the next couple of weeks. And also stay tuned for more details on how to register for one of the three free Live Online trainings coming up on November 13th and 14th. So thank you so much my friends for hanging out today really appreciate the fact that you are giving me your attention. Coming up next week I’ve got a Facebook ads. Case study for you with a listener of the podcast here. His name is Nick wooll me and he’s been using what he learns here on the show to get some incredible results for boutique fitness and yoga studios in the Houston Texas area. We’re going to break down two campaigns specifically one where he generated $15000 in class sales on a Facebook ad spend of $50 literally and another campaign where he generated over fifty eight thousand dollars in revenue for the studio and on ad spend of just $330. [00:52:56] So all that is coming up in the next episode. So until then as always keep testing your patriotic traffic to find out what works for you and your business and then do more of what’s working. And I’ll see you in the next episode.