Ever find yourself grappling with the growing pains of leadership and team management? This episode is for you. Today, we sit down with the remarkable Katrina Ubell, pediatrician-turned-weight-loss coach. Katrina bravely shares her journey through the trenches of business leadership, from untrained leader to a visionary who masterfully restructured her team and shifted power dynamics to her favor.

Join us as we delve into the nuances of her experiences, shedding light on the invisible hurdles entrepreneurs often face.

In this episode you'll hear:

• Evolution of Leadership (03:15) – Katrina takes us through her journey of dismantling and rebuilding her business, highlighting the pivotal moments that shaped her leadership style. Discover how hiring a COO revolutionized her operations and set a clear vision for her team's success.
• Navigating Power Dynamics (11:45) – Uncover the hidden hurdles entrepreneurs face in managing power dynamics within their teams and businesses. Katrina shares her experiences of overcoming fears of abandonment and people-pleasing to claim her rightful place as a leader.
• The Role of Trust and Responsibility (19:30) – Explore the vital role of trust in effective leadership and how taking total responsibility for results drives a team to success. Learn from Katrina's candid insights on fostering trust and accountability among team members.
• Embracing Growth and Convictions (28:10) – Katrina reflects on her rock-bottom moments and how they became catalysts for her personal growth and business evolution. Gain valuable lessons on managing customer expectations, prioritizing tasks, and addressing internal issues without compromising your convictions.

Leadership and team management can be a challenging journey, but Katrina Ubell's story of resilience and growth is a true inspiration. Tune in to this enlightening conversation and embark on your own journey of leadership evolution.

Links & Resources:

• The Art of Online Business website
• DM me on Instagram
• Visit my YouTube channel
• The Art of Online Business clips on YouTube
• Full episodes of The Art of Online Business Podcast on YouTube
• The Art of Online Business Podcast website
• Check out my Accelerator coaching program

Katrina Ubell's Links:

• Visit Katrina's Website
• Listen to Katrina's “Weight Loss for Busy Physicians” Podcast
• Purchase Katrina's Book “How To Lost Weight for the Last Time” 
• Follow Katrina on Facebook
• Follow Katrina on Instagram
• Follow Katrina on TikTok
• Follow Katrina on Pinterest
• Learn more about Katrina on LinkedIn

Please support the podcast by giving an honest Rating/Review for the show on iTunes!

You know, I think that for some of us, we have to just it just has to get super, super painful for before we're willing to we're really willing to do the hard thing. Like, I definitely got to a place where I was like, I cannot live like this. I will not live like this. I will not tolerate this in my business.

Hey. Hey. What's up, my friends? Welcome to episode number 712 here on the show. Really excited about my guest today. She is a member of our accelerator coaching program. And I've been working with Katrina UBL now for several months. And Katrina is a pediatrician turned weight loss coach who helps women identifying physicians lose weight for the last time and find peace and freedom around food. And she helps busy these busy physicians with brain based strategies. She's also the author of the book How to Lose Weight for the Last Time Brain based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss. And she's also the the host of a very popular podcast called Weight Loss for Busy Physicians.

And I asked Katrina to come on to the show here today because in working with her over the past several months prior to the sabbatical, she's been experiencing a lot of challenges with her team. And there's just been a huge overhaul and growth that has gone on in her team. And I say growth primarily from her as a leader. And she has really evolved over the past several months in her leadership where she was just last year as a CEO in terms of leadership and the team and stuff like that is just very different from where she is right now. And I want her to come on here. And I asked her if she'd be open to talking, talking about some of the things that have gone on in the team and how she got to the point that she did, because so many of us can relate to just kind of not wanting to deal with what's going on with team or underperforming team. You know, I did an episode here on the show a couple of months ago talking about, you know, when we keep people for too long on our team, it's kind of like a boat or a ship dragging an anchor.

You know, it's going to slow us down and bring everybody around us on the team holding them back. And that's really what a lot of what Katrina was experiencing with within her team. And it was a it was a tough road. And it's it's kind of one of those things. And, you know, I did an episode about this topic also a few a couple of months ago called Embracing the Muck. And it wasn't fun for Katrina going through this period of, you know, all the issues that she was having and the the team and the overhaul and all that stuff and bringing new people on. But she's on the other side of this now. And so I her to come on and share this experience that she's had, what she's learned, the lessons, the takeaways. And also now that she's at this point, she's on the other side of the muck, if you will. That business is just everybody's going in one direction, Everybody's rowing in one direction, and it is just going to take back off again.

So without further ado, let's go have this conversation and go. Hey. Hey. What's up, my friends? Welcome to Katrina. You have. Let's call it had a little rocky road over the past year or so with your with your team. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what's been going on.

You know what I what the way I can sum it up is that. I think it's really normal. To build a business. And as you do that, essentially kind of cobbled together the structure, kind of the people, you know, you need someone here, you need someone there, kind of stick it all together and that can take you to a certain place. Right? That can take you so far, so to speak. Yeah. And then you need to take that down essentially, like demolish it to a certain extent and rebuild, you know, setting a different foundation and really building a team of people who are on board with the vision that, you know, that I have or, you know, for just any company, whoever's in charge of the vision, like who are really bought into that, who really want to be a part of a team, who really want to who feel very connected to the goal.

And so that's essentially what happened to me, where I got to a point where a lot of things weren't working. My intuition very much was telling me, there's some weird things going on. I, you know, at the same time as this was all happening, I was also getting ready to market my book that was being published. Yeah. And a lot going on, you know, and the other thing that I just am super honest and open about is that I am not the most skillful leader. You know, like I never took a business class a day in my life. I've never taken a leadership course or really been taught about leadership in any kind of meaningful way. And so I was just making it up as I went along, which is entrepreneurship. I mean.

Yeah. Which is what most people do. Yeah.

Exactly. And so like, I for sure can take ownership and responsibility for the end result that then needed to be changed. But I don't beat myself up over it.

I'm not upset with myself because I know I was doing the absolute best I could with the knowledge and support that I had and really what what it came to for me was recognizing, you know, I have some gaps in my knowledge and my skills, right? Like how to actually lead an actual team of like 20 people, you know, how what are good leadership principles? Like, how do you do all this stuff? I know I could learn more about that, but I'm only one person. And so I'm also the lead coach in my business. And I'm also really, really involved in marketing and sales. So then to take that on to is like, When was I supposed to be doing that? Yeah. So I was like, I know I could learn it. I know I could get better at it. But it seemed like probably not the absolute best use of my time and energy. And that's how I knew it was time to hire a Or. We run on iOS. So it's an integrator and in our business.

But I very much hired her being very, very clear from the get go. There's some weird things going on. I don't know what that well, I don't know what it is and I don't know how to fix it. And I need you to come in here and flip the lights on and then help me figure out what to do. And that's exactly what she did on.

 A broad level. On a higher level, Like what were some of the things that why did you think that there was, you know, things going on that really weren't, you know, how did you know in your gut like things are going.

Yeah, it was a lot of subtle stuff. And I will just say that I in general probably err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt too much, probably being a bit too trusting, you know, like being, you know, I definitely, you know, can be a people pleaser. Just really. There were many times when I would think this isn't right, and then I'd go, Well, hold on, is this me? You know, am I just being a jerk because I'm thinking this? So there's a long time where I kept overly functioning sort of in the business, overly taking responsibility.

But I'll tell you that that was also I can say now in hindsight, that was a way for me to like if it was my fault, then I didn't have to actually go and have that difficult conversation and actually hold someone accountable. Yeah. And risk the fact that they may not like that and then they might leave. And then I'm going to have to find someone who can fill that role. And what am I going to do that and where am I going to find that person? Right? So if it's just my fault, then I can just work on myself. And you know, so that only goes so far. So the things that to answer your question, the things that started creeping up for me was, you know, one area being just really, really confused about why that department was taking so long to do like everything. Like none of my friends who have businesses seem to ever complain about this kind of stuff. I was like, I kind of think this isn't us issue. Not it just takes this long to do this kind of work issue.

And were you giving deadlines and stuff?

Oh, definite. Lines and stuff, but meeting them needing like a huge leeway to get what I consider to be pretty basic stuff done. Okay. You know, kind of come to find out the processes that were built around these really run of the mill types of activities in the business were immensely overly complicated. And I had been suspicious that they were that way. When I brought that up, I was assured that they were not that way because that, you know, the people who set it up think it has to be that way. Sure. And and so it would be very frustrating to me. I was getting a lot of no's like, hey, there's this opportunity. I need you guys to send out this email tomorrow and and literally being told no.

And it's your business.

And it's my business. I'm the owner and the CEO and it's like, I kind of think that this is not right. Like this seems really not right to me. And then also, sometimes I would just be on because we're 100% remote.

I would be on some Zoom meetings and just the way people like it was like their energy. This is why I mean, it was more like intuitive. It wasn't even necessarily always like what they said. It's like how they said it or what their attitude was or and the energy behind it. And also just big picture, really feeling very alone in my business, like extremely alone and like 20 employees and, you know, a kind of a, a descriptor that I used was like, I feel like I'm hiking the Alps and I'm dragging 20 people behind me on a, you know, sled or whatever. Like it just you can only go so far with that before you start going like. You know, am I the only one who actually really cares about this? Yeah. And that's what I mean about, like, getting buy in from the team on like, what are we actually doing and why are we doing it? And as that evolves over time, it's natural and normal that there would be some turnover.

So I had a lot of pride about the fact that there hadn't been a lot of turnover in my business. But what I realize now is that I was just hanging on to people who weren't the right fit anymore because I was trying. It was like, it's so classic, right? Like I wanted to avoid the more immediate discomfort.

Of having those.

Actually having the conversation and actually figuring it out. Yeah. And, and what I was trading was a lot of long term pain. Yeah. You know, I'm like, let me just I mean, the number of times that I essentially talk myself out of, you know, my opinion about what was going on, you know.

Is that because you didn't want to have that like like confrontation, quote, unquote.

Confrontation. Also just really not feeling confident in my knowledge to come in there and say, no, like this isn't right. And I have to say, and I can identify that now because now that I do have a partner in the business as my co my integrator, I mean, we see it's like a marriage, you know what I mean? So but we are super in lockstep about what we're trying to do.

And so she is a great sounding board. For me to be able to go like this is bugging me. What do you think? And she because her job is literally operating the company. Yeah. And she has experience in that. She can give me more feedback on that. So I'm not just deciding for myself what it is. It's like together we're deciding that. But I also feel like now I can come forward and give someone some feedback or hold them accountable. And I know she's got my back. Yeah. For I felt like, you know, if I make that person mad in quotes, right? Like if I upset them. Yeah. Like what am I going to do? I can't do their job too. Like some of the what they were doing, like, I don't know how to do. Sure, sure. You know, And so I just. I felt kind of really, like, stuck. Like they were in charge and they like they let me work with them.

Right. Like what?

That picture that you painted with, you're climbing the Alps and you got your dragging 20 people behind you on a sled like that. I mean, that just it's it's a perfect way to describe that. How do you think you got to that point? Where?

Yeah.

You feel so alone?

Sure. Yeah. Well, here are some things. Some. Some real tangible things. I, being the good Midwesterner that I am and was raised to say please and thank you. So I would just ask people if they could do things for me, which then opened them up to say no. And what I had to learn was to say, Please do this. Thank you. Instead of asking. That was a huge, huge step there. There was a weird power dynamic where I wasn't the one essentially ultimately calling the shots and I needed to shift that. I needed to make it so that like, even with my assistant, with everything, I'm like, I have to I have I have to act like I'm in charge here.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. And instead, I was before that doing a lot of, like, caucusing, like, let's all talk about it. Everybody gets a say. And I already knew what I wanted to do, but I felt like I had to convince them all to get them on my side, you know, just. You know, really wanting everybody to just sort of be happy. And again, that's sort of that people pleasing and essentially then doing things that weren't right for me or the company in favor of that.

How long did it take to to sort of get to that point? Like, over what time period did this?

Well, you know, I've been in business seven years now. And I will say, based on what one of my friends just recently reminded me of who I talked to about this kind of stuff regularly. I mean, I think it's probably been 2 or 3 years, like there's one person in particular that she just kept being like, I'm just waiting for you to let that person go.

And God, it made me so uncomfortable to think about letting that person go. So it's like sometimes other people can see it and, you know, and I was like making excuses for her or whatever the issue was would kind of blow over. I mean, it's essentially it's like if you're in any kind of deep relationship and particularly like in a marriage, you know, you can just, you know, let things fly under the surface or, you know, just under the radar. Like, we're not going to deal with that. Everyone will get over it. But it doesn't mean that there's still not a problem. Right. There's still a problem at hand, you know, and and, yeah, it was tough.

What was it like? What what specifically? Because I'm kind of digging into this because everybody who has a team can relate to this.

I think so, too. And nobody talks about this. I don't feel like anyone's talking about.

I agree. You know, And if they if they're not feeling that way now, they have felt this way at some point in, you know, the lifespan of their business with their team.

Yeah. What was it specifically that. Was really keeping you from having those conversations? Like, what were you like? What was was there a fear there? I know we talked about like people pleasing, etcetera.

It was 100%. It was basically like a fear of abandonment, so to speak, in the sense that these were people who were doing things in the business that I did not have either the knowledge of how to do myself, like, how would I train someone, how to do this? I have no idea. Like, one person had a lot of institutional knowledge and for years I was like, I need you to get all the SOPs up. I need you. Because I'd been thinking, like, when I replace this person, I need this all there and like it, always taking for it because everything took forever. Taking forever, like it's still not done. So it kind of in my mind. I told myself, Oh, once that's all done, then we can kind of pushing it off for my discomfort.

But yeah, but really feeling so scared to be like essentially like alone. Like abandoned. Like if I make them mad, if they get upset, they'll leave. And then I'm going to be scared. Yeah. You know, and because I didn't feel like I really had that ally who was like, really in it with me that I could rely on. So I felt super alone and like a little bit like beholden to these people, like I really need them. And, you know, and also just not knowing what to do. Okay? So I know what I didn't like there, but what do I need moving forward? I don't know. Yeah, right. Like, I don't know how to grow a big business, right? Big in my time is obviously not a big business, but like, to me it's a big business.

I mean, you get 20, 20 employees. It's. It's a good size, you know, good size, small business. Yeah.

So and having people that you can trust, you know, that was a big thing for me in hiring a I was like.

This person is going to be making decisions, big decisions on my behalf. Like we have to I have to really trust that this person has the company's best interest at heart. You know.

When when you're having these kind of issues with with, you know, it sounds like full teams or specific people. Were they responsible for specific results in in your business in terms of the department that they were working in? Or was it more like, oh, these are the types of things that they're supposed to be doing?

Such a good question, because really what it came down to was I was responsible for all the results and they were responsible for the doing, you know, So it's like they really weren't they also weren't leaders. And I can't even really blame them because they were very much like homegrown, you know, like they didn't come in with that skill set. And I wasn't great at developing them in this way, you know, like I wasn't even good at it. So. So it was very much like my responsibility to come up with most of the ideas, to tell them what I wanted and for them to go and make it happen.

But then whether it worked or not was like on me. You know, so, so again, like feeling so alone, like, you know, and sometimes I remember telling them, like, you guys, like we have to get X, Y and Z thing, you know, we need to change this result. And then just sort of being like almost like a little frozen, Like they hear what I'm saying and they understand, but they do not make the connection to how that is, you know, impacts them or what they should be doing. They're like, okay, we're waiting to hear from you. We're going to do. And so, you know, some people talk about, you know, title inflation. You know, that that happens really commonly in in entrepreneurial in the entrepreneurial world. And and what I realized so much is we had big time title inflation, you know, so people who, you know have the title but aren't doing that level of work. And the only reason I know that is from experience now.

Yeah. Because at the time when I chose those names, I'm like, What difference does it make? Who cares? I don't like the word manager. Let's pick director, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, no, we don't do that.

Yeah, there's a very specific intention in role with that, with that type of thing.

And then you're paying someone for director level work, but they're not a director level worker.

Exactly. Yeah. What, what is the makeup of the business in terms of the departments?

So we have three departments, we have client success and that also in companies tech, we have our programs department, which is basically our coaches, like all the people who are client facing who are, you know, delivering our actual program, helping to deliver it. And then we have marketing, which also encompasses a sales manager.

What would you say?

Have a fractional CFO? Because money is important to.

Sure. Just a little bit. What do you think? I mean, you brought your integrator on.

I think I mean, I think that's the the most important hire that you've done over the past year or so. By far, I mean, she's amazing.

And, you know, because I was working with you as I was in that process of hiring and you knew where I was at. You've been with me following through this whole thing. And, you know, with some people will say, I've heard this now several times, as they'll say, you know what, before you make that like strategic hire for, you know, or somebody like that, that, you know, you just want to get the whole team in place first. And what I did instead was I hired that person at the top and now we're filling in the team from there. And I think that's a much better way to go about it. I agree. A lot of companies, you know, a lot of people are not going to be at a place where there may be thinking about that. But you can you can hire fractional integrators or fractional CEOs, like people who can really come in and like get that structure right for what you need to do.

And, you know, I have no problem humbling myself. Like, I don't know how to do that stuff. I don't have experience in it. I'm just completely making it up based on nothing. And so sometimes, like for anybody else who's like, Yeah, me too. Like, it's totally, you know, it makes sense. And it's okay to hire in even if it's like on a contract basis or something, someone who can come in and set that structure in place and set expectations with people kind of like model to you how to do it. Sure. At one point I thought, do I need to hire a leadership coach? And then I realized like my integrator is basically my leadership coach. Like she came in and was like doing all this stuff. She has stretched me so hard, you know, things that were extremely uncomfortable for me to do. But I've grown so much as a leader, even just in the last 4 or 5 months based on the things that we had to do and we had to do them.

It's easy to think, Oh no, the integrator will just take care of it. But no, like we have to come on as a united front. Yeah. And do it together. And and so luckily, you know, she has held me accountable to that. And I've been willing to be held accountable because there are definitely stories you hear where the then, you know, the CEO or the visionary is just like, no, I'm not, you know.

Yeah, I'm just going to do my thing over here. I mean, you mentioned that you've grown as a leader in the past 4 to 5 months. I 100% agree and I've really seen that. And you have involved yourself a whole lot more in a lot of those, you know, maybe uncomfortable conversations or situations in in the business. And so what like what is the sort of the what's kind of happened as a result of all this?

Yeah, I mean, we're not fully complete with our we're still building out our leadership team.

But what we have what the result has been because really what you're saying is like and this is what's happened is I've put in so much of my time and effort over the last several months investing into my team. And typically I wouldn't have been doing that. I would have been off doing other things that are also important, but I wouldn't have been spending so much time with them. And so the result of that is a group of people who are still, you know, new to new ish, you know, so we're still getting everybody's, you know, sea legs and getting everybody really comfortable. But people who really understand what we do like, you know, we have as part of our onboarding process, everybody goes through our program now. It doesn't matter what job you have, because I was really saying like we had people working, had people working for me who did not even understand what we did, you know, like like what are we doing and who and why. They don't understand any of that.

So getting people really connected to the impact we're trying to make, the purpose of all of this right from the get go, having them really understand what do we do on a day to day basis and and then being real clear on expectations and holding people accountable. We actually put accountability into our core values that we are accountable to self team and clients. It just it has to be that way. And so we've even in our hiring process, really, we were screening for people who wanted to be a part of a team, You know, in the entrepreneurial, especially online world, it's really easy to find a lot of people who just kind of want to do their own thing and, you know, maybe want to be contractors because then they can just do whatever they want and that is fine and it will only get you, you know, get you to a certain extent. And also some people, you know, just different personalities. But but you get to a point where you're like, I need people who want to be employed at a company and devote all their time and energy to this work.

Yeah, I can't have someone who's got their, you know, foot over here doing this other stuff for that person. Like I need them really just focused on this business and doing a really great job. And so finding those people has been really important to but, but just like getting everybody together, like I feel so supported. Yeah. Finally, I feel like I have a team of people who are like, Yes, we're here with you. I'm like, Oh my gosh.

I feel like I feel like you're. The picture I have in my mind is like, you're the queen bee in the middle of the swarm, all heading in the same direction. Yeah, and probably not a great adult like metaphor, but like, that's what I think of is like where? And also there's a I forgot the name of the book. Was it the one thing or something like that where it has the picture of, you know, like this squiggly arrow and it's going everywhere and it's like, Are you like this? Or is it one? And then the next picture was like the straight arrow going in one direction.

Yeah.

Is that essentialism? That.

Maybe it's essentialism. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Which is another good book.

I feel like that's the that's what it looks like now as you're all heading in the same direction. So you had to go through some turnover in the business to address a lot of these things. Are you now giving I talk a lot about this, as you know, like context. When we are having the team work on a project or a department do something. Because you mentioned earlier like you would tell somebody to do something or ask them to do something and they wouldn't have like they'd be like, Oh, okay. Well, I don't really know how this impacts me or what have you, but when we give context, like, All right, this is why we're doing it. This is how it fits into our mission. This is why it's important. This is who you can be, you know? Are we doing more of that in the business now?

Definitely, because we've also seen like, yeah, there's something where we thought everybody knew.

This was just a couple of months ago. We thought everyone on the team understood and then come to realize like they were asking questions. We were like, okay, they did. We obviously did not clearly communicate this. Yeah. And so we're actually going to be selling a new live event that we're going to be doing where this is coming up just here in a couple of days that we're selling the tickets for it. And and, you know, really spent a lot of time making sure that, you know, everybody involved like understand, which is really the whole team. They understand like, what is this? Why are we doing this? You know, what's expected of me in in the selling of this. But even at the event, like just getting the the team buy in on it. And I think that's to your point just so important because otherwise it's just like something you're doing, you know, and it's I think it's really easy to feel detached and not like an actual important part of the team.

Yeah. You know, we need to make sure that that people feel some connection to the team so that especially, you know, when you're working remote, it's that much harder, right? You can't just like walk by someone's office and, you know, stick your head in the door like it requires more intention.

And you did that. You had that intention recently where you had some new members of the team and you all got together in I think it was Chicago, right? Yeah. And I remember you saying like, that was amazing. I'd like to get everybody on the same page.

Really? Like an investment? Yeah. Investment in the team. What? What?

Like, what were the types of things that you did? And I realized that not everybody can do that sort of thing. But if there's an opportunity to, you know, and maybe it's not just, you know, not a single department, but if you can get the whole team together and do like a team retreat or something, What were some of the things that you did on that trip that made it so successful?

Yeah.

Well, part of it was just, you know, breaking bread, you know, having a meal, spending time actually together in a kind of less formal or less of a working environment. I've really learned that, especially when you're holding people accountable, it's really good for them to see the humanity in you, that you actually are a normal person who's like a good person, a nice person, you know, so that when they're reading a Slack message, that's telling them that this thing is not right or whatever, they're hearing it, you know, not from this meanie who is such a jerk or whatever, you know, like they're hearing totally. Yeah, yeah. They're like, No, I know who she is. And so the the mental tone is going to be different. So there's a lot of that. And then we spent a day essentially working on having the new team members get to know one another. So we did, you know, just kind of some team health types of things.

But then we also because this was just one specific department, we had them put together what we call like the commandments for the work that they do. So so, you know, I and my integrator, we we facilitated that conversation. But essentially they decided amongst themselves, you know, what were the the most important things in terms of how they are doing their work. And then we we brainstormed and then they really chunked it down. And everyone then we read it out loud and then everyone went around like, can you agree to this? Yes. Like a verbal yes. Going all the way around. Like this is who we are as a team and this is what we commit to doing and how we commit to doing it. And so that was a lot of I mean, it was so powerful. It was actually amazing. And and also such a good way to get expectations clear right from the beginning. Right? Because now we can go back at any time and go like, hey, well, you remember you agreed to this.

Yep. And there's this issue here. They're not in alignment. So, you know, what are the next steps moving forward? So that was really helpful. And, you know, they actually practiced with one another some skills that some were more comfortable or confident in than others. And so they learn from each other in that way, you know, some kind of complicated tech stuff that's not like even hard to do. It's just you need someone to show you. And then once you know how to do it, you know how to do it. We did that so that it was a lot less like trying to teach them that virtually. Yeah. So they felt like really confident and comfortable in that way and really bonded to one another. And to us like, like we're a team going and doing this. Yeah.

I love that you did that tend.

To be the one who was like, We don't need to do that.

Well, that's why I'm asking you about it, because this was something new for you to bring everybody together.

And I remember talking.

I've learned it in making really important hires, like with my integrator. When I was down to the final candidates, I thought I wanted to hire the person I hired, but I thought, you know what? I need a meter in person first. And so I flew out for the night and took her to dinner. And that was the absolute best thing I could have done because it just it immediately set us off on the right foot. We had that connection. I felt like we got to know each other so much more. But we also even discussed from that first night before I'd even made the the offer to her some things about like how we would work together and, you know, like because I'm her partner in one part of my job and I'm the owner of the business, so I'm her boss. And another part and like, how does how do we distinguish between those things? And so then we made later, several months later, we made a director hire and we didn't go meet the person first.

And within two weeks we had to let her go. It was just so clear like this was. And we were like, You know what? If we had met her, we would have known. Yeah, we met her in real life. So then we've hired a different person since then. And we did. We flew out to her, took her to dinner, and it was like so clear. Within 30 minutes, we're like, She's this is great. Like, you know her. We know who she is. So I understand it's not in the budget for everybody always. But if it is, if there's any way to make it, make that happen, think for those those really important partnership types of hires, like just getting together in person, if at all possible, before making the decision I think can help to prevent some oopses later.

Yeah. And you get it down to like two candidates not saying like, all right, there's four finalists here. You don't have to do all four.

No, no, no, no. Get it down to a couple.

Doing it like this is the person I think I want. And let me confirm that by going and actually meeting them. Yeah. Or I think if you really are between two candidates that you're really just like, oh my gosh, how am I ever going to decide That can be helpful to totally do. I just mesh more with, you know, I mean, what I was like laughing about when we met that last director candidate who's actually on board with us now. She was just saying things about like, her philosophy of leadership, which are literally the exact same things I've heard my integrator say. So I'm like, okay, So philosophically, they are completely in alignment. This is very important.

Just curious, were those in were those in like the job description? No. Oh, interesting. Okay. No.

No. It was literally like she was talking about this that she did and her other job and this and that.

And, you know, the way I think about it is X, Y and Z, And I'm like, huh, that's really fascinating.

Checking that box. Yeah.

Like, okay. And, you know, just use fun. We we could enjoy ourselves with her too, which isn't like a total requirement, but it's so nice to have, you know? Yeah. Like you spend a lot of time with these people. Like, you know, you're trusting them with some important things. It's nice if you can have some sort of, you know, enjoyment of each other's company too.

What would you say are the biggest lessons that you've learned going through this process that you would share with other. CEOs, business leaders who are listening right now.

You know, I think that for some of us, we have to just it just has to get super, super painful. Yeah. Before before willing to. We're really willing to do the hard thing. Like, I definitely got to a place where I was like, I cannot live like this.

I will not live like this. I will not tolerate this in my business. And then from there, you know, a lot of growth came because it's like, okay, if I've hit rock bottom here, yeah, then what are we doing moving forward? And so I don't miss a good rock bottom. Like, don't miss the lessons to be learned from a good rock bottom moment. You know what I mean? Last thing you want to do is like, hit that again. Like you want to like, use that as a springboard to come off and do better, whatever that looks like. And does it mean I'm fixed? I'm an amazing leader. No, but am I a lot better than I was? Yes, I think so. Yeah. So I think you have to be willing to humble yourself, though, to really be able to see, you know, the gaps that you have in your abilities. And that doesn't even mean that you have to necessarily get so much better at that.

But you need to find somebody who's.

Yeah.

Totally, you know, Yeah. And, and just, you know, having the humility to. Admit that, you know, you don't have it all figured out and you need to grow and improve and and do that even when it's really not popular. I mean, we didn't even get into that. Like, you know, sometimes you make these changes and there's, you know, backlash in various areas. And we definitely had some of that. And but because I'm coming at this from that rock bottom place, I know where we were and I will not go back there again. Like under any circumstances.

Yeah.

The end. So if people are upset, I'm like, I hear you. I understand what you're saying and I will not be doing anything differently. Yeah.

And when you say that, you're talking about some of your customers. Yeah, Yeah. And that's so important that you have that you have that conviction of like, look, this is where, like, I'm not going back there, you know? And if it's a case and they don't.

Like a customer isn't going to know what's going on behind the scenes at all. Like they see one little sliver of what's really happening. And, you know, some people, you know, they have the the don't know wisdom to understand that and to go, hey, you know what? I'm not privy to that information that's private anyway. I'm never going to know. I'm going to work through my feelings about it and move on and other people can really get stuck on it. Yeah. And and that doesn't mean that, you know, I don't know the way I mean, it sounds kind of funny, but we do not operate from the mindset of the customer's always right. Like, we don't believe that this is an.

Example of that. Yeah.

Example of it. Like I hear you that you think you know what happened and you think this person's been wronged and you don't know what you're talking about. Like, yeah, you're wrong. Yeah. You know, and letting them work out, like, that's not a me problem.

Like, that's a them problem that they have the opportunity to work through. Yeah, I.

Want to, I want to, I want to wrap up with just pointing out I think this is really important for people to understand too, that some things in the business will have to sort of coast, some things will have to kind of be pushed aside while these things are happening. And it's okay. Like one thing for you and I know we've talked about this a lot is like the marketing. The, you know, the marketing sort of got pushed to the side because you had to deal with these things. And it wasn't like it's kind of like you don't you don't add more leads to a broken funnel. Right, right, right.

You're paying for leads to go into a broken funnel that doesn't convert into buyers. It's like you need to stop with that and sort out the internal problem. Yeah, and you're right. I mean, that has been scary. Um, I a while back. Kind of made a pact with myself.

You know, I'm kind of the person I can come up with so many ideas all the time, typically. And it was starting to feel so demoralizing to come up with all these ideas and to not have the team in place, to be able to do any of them that I kind of like to a certain degree, kind of like turn down the volume on that part of my brain. You know, I was like, I just have to I really just have to be all in on focusing on this stuff right now. And I'm just coming around now going, okay, I can turn the volume up on that a little bit more. Like, yeah, there's, there's capacity now to be able to focus on some of those things and I feel energized by it. I'm excited to go and do some of those things again because I think it's one of the things that that I do well and I can really contribute to the company in that way. But sometimes, right, Like it's like you got to take your vitamins like, you know, it's not going to taste good.

It's not what you want to be doing, but you can't just keep, you know, and you see this all the time when companies implode. We don't maybe know all the details, but like, you know, they're just focusing on maybe growth at any cost or whatever. And it's a complete disaster inside. Yeah. And I just do want to say, too, that something that has I've reminded myself of several times throughout this process is that companies restructure all of the time. Yeah, like this is a normal thing that happens in big companies and small companies like this is how it goes, like nothing is going wrong because I've gotten to this point in my company, right? And even if I had been a better leader, it's also really possible that I would have ended up in a similar place. Yeah, doing similar things. So like, I can learn from it. I can take responsibility for like, yeah, I should have been probably making the time to do X, y and Z, but I didn't know to do that back then.

Yeah. So I'm not holding that against myself, you know. Now I know better.

Yeah.

You know, and, and I would do it differently, but I am doing it differently, right? It's like, yeah. So it's not like hanging that over my head or anything. It's like, right, this is what mean. It's kind of like parenting, you know, this kid pops out and like, you know what you're doing. I'm even a pediatrician. You think I know what I'm doing? It's like there's a lot of things they don't teach you, you know? So I always talk about, like, the first kid is like your first pancake. You know what I mean? It's just like you're going to make all your mistakes. It's going to look weird. It's not going to be cooked right. You know, that's just like how it is. And so if this is your first business, like, literally, why would I know anything?

Right, Exactly. It's such a great.

I've even been able to do what I've done is a miracle. You know.

It's such I'm so glad you bring that because you kind of have to have that perspective and humility to be able to look at that, look at it that way, and like, all right, it sucked to go through it during that time. But, you know, kind of glad that I did because my evolution of a CEO has really continued here and I've learned so much. And now we move forward.

Exactly.

And you're all moving in one direction. And I know that we've talked several times about this, but it's like, all right, now you've gotten through this part and still going through some of it, but now it's like, all right, it's kind of like rocket ship kind of time because now you're all moving in the same direction 100%.

And, you know, again, like I know you don't talk about that much entrepreneur operating system, but that's one of the things that they talk about in EOS is you need to have the whole team rowing in the same direction.

Like that's their terminology and that's exactly what you're describing. You know, that's like a goal to get to that place where every team member has got their Or and they know how they contribute to the team. You can't have people in a rowboat whose oars are going all this all over the place. So you're not going to get anywhere, right? Like everyone's rowing in the same direction, same cadence, one team, one sound to change the metaphor, you know, like. Yeah, it's like that's. That is what we have to be striving for. But I do also want to say like, we got to be really careful about like that perfection of like, Oh, once I get the team to that place, like then all our problems will be solved. Or, you know, like there is that there is even a, you know, a goal of like every single person is like that, a team player. I mean, I hope so. Like, ideally, yes, but like leadership, is that even that a team person who's like, you know, amazing, like, you know, has some family issue or whatever it needs, you know, gets pregnant or like whatever it is, there's always going to be some issues with this.

I remember when I was in in practice as a pediatrician, one of the older doctors told me he said, h.r. Issues are just like laundry. There's always some to do. And i was like, that's kind of a good way of thinking about it. Like, it really isn't like that. We're going to get everyone settled and then we'll be golden. Like, no, there's always going to be something that you're dealing with. Yeah. And just normalizing that. But if you know at least 80% of your team is on board and doing the right thing, I mean, think that's huge. Yeah.

I love it. Where can people connect with you? What are the best ways for people to reach out to Katrina?

Yeah, well, I've got a podcast, too. I have a lot. Nonfiction listeners, even though it's called weight loss for busy physicians. Yes, you do actually talk about a lot of things that are not even really that weight loss related because all of it comes back to, you know, reasons why some of us use food to feel better.

So that's a great way to find me and and also have a book out called How to Lose Weight for the last time, brain based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss. So that's available anywhere, including an audiobook and read the audiobook. So you did like me and likes. Yeah I. I really pretty much will only listen to an audiobook if the author read it. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I just. I've tried. I just can't get through it, but I read it.

Link I've link the book and the your website as well as the podcast up in the show notes for today's episode. Katrina, thank you so much for coming on here. I know this is a vulnerable conversation and like I said in the very beginning, so many people can relate to this. So thank you for coming on and sharing your experience.

Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity.

Hey, make sure to check out the links for Katrina's book and also her podcast over on the show notes page for today's episode over on my website. Rick Mulready. Go to the podcast section and you can see it right there. Also, if you've not yet left a quick A rating and review for the podcast over on Apple podcast, I'd super appreciate it. It's very supportive of the show because it helps us on the platform there and it literally takes like 10s. So if if you wouldn't mind leaving a quick rating review for the show and also subscribing to the podcast so that you don't miss any episodes, whether it's on Apple Podcast or Spotify or Stitcher or whatever you're listening on, give it a follow, give it a subscribe, and I would appreciate that. Thank you so much for for doing that. And thank you as always, my friend, for listening and tuning in today. I appreciate your attention. Hope all is going well. Until next time, be well, my friend. I'll chat with you soon.