How to Create Sustainable Visibility In Your Business with Mai-kee Tsang - Rick Mulready

rick mulready

How to Create Sustainable Visibility In Your Business with Mai-kee Tsang

June 15, 2022

Let’s turn the conversation about getting visibility for your business on its head.

We all want to generate more revenue, increase our profits, and help more and more people, right? Well, in order to do that, we need to broaden our audiences and attract them into our business, and we are often taught to reach out to as many people as possible to do that. But what if we approach it differently?

In today’s episode of Art of Online Business, I sat down with Mai-kee Tsang to talk about sustainable visibility. This means putting ourselves out there more in a way that feels right for us, so rather than trying to reach as many people as we can, we can do it in a sustainable way. This is so important because it is about safety first and strategy second.

Mai-kee Tsang is The Sustainable Visibility® Mentor, Certified Trauma-Sensitive Leadership Coach & Podcast Guesting Strategy Trainer.

She helps underestimated & underrepresented humans in business to take an intersectional & trauma-sensitive approach to visibility. This is so that they can feel safer expanding their comfort zone, as they become more visible to grow their impact-fueled businesses.

After listening to this episode, my hope is that you’ll be able to shift how you approach getting visibility. Whether it is podcasts, social media, or YouTube—you’ll be able to make sure that it is in alignment with you. 


In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • Why it’s harmful to find visibility if you don’t have systems to uphold who you are 
  • The Circles of Intimacy and why they matter when it comes to visibility 
  • Why oversharing can be harmful in some cases
  • Why playing it safe isn’t the same as playing small
  • How to be consistent with the way you show up
  • What trigger warnings are and why they matter
  • How to leverage sustainable visibility when being a guest on podcasts


Links & Resources:

*Disclosure: I only recommend products I use and love and all opinions expressed here are my own. This post may contain affiliate links that at no additional cost to you, I may earn a small commission.

Mai-kee Tsang’s Links: 

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Other Episodes You’ll Enjoy:

How to Increase Sales of Your Main Offer

4 Pillars of Wealth Building for Online Entrepreneurs, with Salena Kulkarni

Coaching Session: Is the Cost of Achieving Your Goals Too High?



[00:00:00] Speaker1

Hey, my friends, if you were looking for a faster, a better way to grow and scale your online business, you very likely do not need another course or to be reading more books about how to grow your business. What you need instead is a personalized, cohesive growth strategy for your business, along with one on one coaching and group coaching, support and accountability to help you every step of the way. Well, that’s exactly what my accelerator coaching program delivers for you. Accelerator is an intimate 12 month rolling open enrollment, so it’s ongoing open enrollment, personalized coaching program and mastermind experience for established online course creators and coaches who want to take the guesswork out of optimizing and grow towards a profitable seven figure plus business without more anxiety, without more stress and hours spent in front of the computer, accelerator is about thinking differently and bigger about your business, about your team, your funnels, your ads, your vision, etc., so that you can create more profit, more impact with less hustle. So accelerators application only. And again, this is rolling ongoing open enrollment. So if you want to learn more and apply, just go to Rick Mul forward slash accelerator. Hey my friend, welcome to the Art of Online Business Podcast. My name is Rick Mullaney and I’m an online business coach. I’m an ads expert, and most importantly, I’m a dad. And this show is where we help establish online course creators and coaches create more profit, more impact with less hustle. All right, let’s get into it. All right. What is my friend Rick Morty here. Welcome to the Art of Online Business Podcast. 

[00:02:07] Speaker1

Thank you, as always, for coming to hang out with me today. Hope all is going well. So what I want to do today on today’s episode is turn the whole conversation of getting more visibility for yourself and for your business on its head. Right. If you’ve been listening to the podcast here for a while, we are always talking about that. We’re always talking about getting visibility if we want to have a bigger 

impact in the world with our business. So we want to be creating more profit. If we want to be creating more revenue, if we want to be helping more and more people, then a big piece of that, obviously, is to broaden the audience, the people that we are wanting to help and attracting them into into our business. Right. And what is often taught is to just put ourselves out there as much as possible. Right. If we want to be on another podcast, for example, well, let’s reach out to 300 podcasts in the next 90 days and just see how many that we can get onto their shows. Right. And we’re going to flip this conversation on its head here today. I think this is a really, really important conversation that, frankly, I haven’t had, especially on the show here. And I and I don’t see this conversation happening in the online space, which makes me even more excited to introduce you to my guest here today. Her name is McKay Seng, and she’s the founder of the Sustainable Visibility Movement. She is the Sustainable Visibility mentor. She’s a certified, trauma sensitive leadership coach and she’s a podcast guesting strategy trainer. 

[00:03:47] Speaker1

And this conversation here today, my goal with this conversation here today is for to introduce you to this concept of what make calls sustainable visibility, essentially, how do we allow ourselves to be more visible, to be putting ourselves out there more so, but do it in a way that aligns with what feels right for us and to be protecting ourselves in a way, again, that feels good for us rather than let’s just 

do it. Let’s just reach as many people as we possibly can. No, let’s do this in a in a sustainable way. And as you’re going to hear me say today, it’s about safety first, strategy second. So I want to dove right into this here with McKay and have her break down exactly what we’re talking about here today, what your what you can take away from this episode and start doing it in hopefully shifting maybe how you approach getting visibility or putting yourself out there, whether it’s through social media, whether it’s a podcast or emails or whatever it might be, your YouTube videos, and just really how you can start to rethink how you do these things in your business that is more in alignment with you in what’s right for you. And at the end of this episode here today, McKay brilliantly breaks down exactly how to get on other podcasts, leveraging everything we’re talking about here today. And so let’s dove right into it. Let’s go hang out with McKay saying. Okay. Welcome to the podcast. How are you today? 

[00:05:29] Speaker2

I’m doing awesome. Thanks so much for asking. How are you?

[00:05:31] Speaker1

I’m doing great. So as I was mentioning just before we hit record here and for for those of you who listen, who have been listening to the podcast for a long time, you may have heard me say so this one, whenever I do interviews, I am not the type of interviewer where I have seven questions that I need to ask. This is more so me sitting down with my guest having coffee or tea. Are you are you a tea drinker, McKay, since you’re in London. 

[00:05:58] Speaker2

I’m yes, I am actually mainly a tea drinker. However, I do like the occasional latte. I know you’re a coffee person, so I’m just going to be like a bit, but mainly tea. 

[00:06:09] Speaker1

Nice. Nice. Yeah. The afternoon tea in London is amazing. My wife and I have had some of the best experiences at afternoon tea in London, so we’re going to be talking about what it means to be a sustainable visibility mentor. Today, you’ve gone through some different iterations in your business and what you focus on, and I’ve been watching your progress over the past few years, and I really want to kind of dove into what? What has led you to where you are today and how you help people today and what you focus on? Because I think this is a really interesting journey that you’ve been on. And then as we dove into what it is that you actually are doing today and how you’re helping entrepreneurs, how you’re helping online business owners, and, you know, your certified trauma sensitive leadership coach, like what all that means and how we can incorporate what you teach into our businesses and lives as business owners and those of us in our in our personal lives. So why don’t we just start there? What is it specifically that you do today and kind of how did you get to where you are today? Because I know that you have podcasting background as far as helping guests find shows for them to be on, etc., etc.. 

[00:07:32] Speaker2

Yeah. Oh, gosh, it’s such a long, winding journey. And when you just said, I’ll be watching you for a couple of years, oh, gosh, where did you start? Because you’re right, there have been a lot of iterations. And yeah, so in a nutshell, I help underrepresented and underestimated humans in business to take a safety first and strategy second approach to showing up. So that way they are more sustainably visible. Because, Rick, have you seen this with your clients at all where they are, they’re going like, great. They’re being consistent. And suddenly there’s a shot stopping point that they just stop and then it’s like, okay, why did that happen? And it tends to be a pattern that’s kind of like comes back around every now and then. So there is a the gaping hole in the visibility strategy and it’s like, but you have everything in place. So why is that? And I have been on this journey of visibility for quite some time because I got to a point in my business where I needed to be visible and it really shouldn’t have gotten to that point. 

[00:08:36] Speaker2

I got way too reliant on referrals, and then suddenly when other referrals like kind of dried up, I was like, Oh crap, I think I need to do something here. And so my mentors at the time, Rob Marsh and Kira, had to shout out, I know you know Kira. They advised me that, Oh, you should like guest on podcast. And I was like. Okay. And then. Yep. So just go for it and I’ll say, okay. I’ll be like, okay, I’ve been thrown in the deep end before, so I’m just going to keep doing it then and then. So I challenge myself to pitch to 101 podcasts in 30 days. In retrospect, that is no longer as health inspiration as what it once was. It’s now told as a cautionary tale because of the degree of capacity that it took, because every pitch was personalized. And I think I challenge myself that to such a big number, because I honestly didn’t expect quite a big response rate, which I did get. I got 33% of a yes booking rate, which is a lot. And I suddenly. Oh, okay. 

[00:09:45] Speaker1

Yeah, that is a lot. 

[00:09:47] Speaker2

That is a lot. Yeah. 

[00:09:48] Speaker1

So you book to throw your books 33 podcast ish. Yeah. In one month. Not necessarily doing all those interviews, but you booked that many in a month. That’s awesome. 

[00:09:59] Speaker2

Awesome. So again. And yes, also, a lot told us a cautionary tale or cautionary tale. Yes. And then it was actually. So that really kind of. Almost it almost felt like I had these was what I caught. You know, when you see in cartoons that there are these like races and someone who is cheating, they put like a rocket boot on like on the skateboard or something and it goes, that’s how it felt. I was like, okay, I suddenly went from 0 to 100. In regards to speed, how fast I was growing. And I started to notice how those those almost times where I almost didn’t want to be visible. And I wanted to understand why that came into my mind quite often. And when I started having more and more conversations with people, mainly kind of underground because it kind of goes against the whole point is that you you’re visible, so you attract more clients and therefore grow your business, right? So why would I want to change that? But I just couldn’t stifle the thought. And it was through these underground conversations where I really started to be kind of hit in the face with the reality of why it can be harmful if we don’t have the support or the systems in place to kind of uphold this version of ourselves that we say we are when we are pitching ourselves, when we’re showing up, you know, all of that can be compromised if we just don’t have the support and systems to uphold that.

[00:11:27] Speaker2

You know, and I realized that there was a lot of conversations in our online industry around visibility. It was always, put yourself out there. It was always, Oh, jump before you’re ready, just do it anyway. And as someone who I now acknowledge that I am a trauma survivor, I’m also someone with multiple marginalized identities. I’m a highly sensitive person. I’m an introvert. I’m an empath. So I feel the world in amplified manner is kind of like if you threw salt on your arm. It’s like, okay, it’s a little bit abrasive, I guess, if I rub it, 

but no big deal, right? But for someone who has all of these additional layers is like throwing salt on an open wound. And if you were to rub that, that would be incredibly painful. So it started this conversation where we kind of zoom out on what everyone’s telling us to do and actually zooming in on actually what we need in order to feel safe to show up. So I’m going to pause right there because I know what you said. 

[00:12:33] Speaker1

Yeah. And thank you for sharing all that. I mean, we could we could just focus just on that right there in Phil multiple episodes. So but I want to dig into that and unpack that a little bit. So what does it mean? When for? For what? For how you’re referring to it? Where the when you don’t have the support and systems, when you are, quote unquote, trying to become more visible. Yes. What is that what does that mean? And when you’re talking about it specifically in this in this instance. 

[00:13:04] Speaker2

Right. So if we first start with the systems, so if you were to ask all of your clients and yourself this question, if you got an opportunity of a lifetime, whatever that looks like, whether it’s being asked to be on someone’s show who you’ve admired for years. Case in point, right here, for example, it’s kind of like, would I be able to really leverage the potential traffic that can come my way as a result of taking this opportunity? And if it’s not a huge yes, I am ready, then there may be something in your business that needs some tweaking. So do you have, for example, a lead magnet that actually sets up with the landing page? Does the form work? Do you have the welcome sequence? Like, do you have all of that in place in order to really make the most of the opportunity and the return you can gain from it? So if that is a kind of hesitant, maybe then then your systems may not be fully supporting you in that regard. Right. And then if we go to support, that can be in many forms, it could be your team if you have one, and emotional support for you as well, because when you are visible, you can’t just show up and then just kind of leave. 

[00:14:21] Speaker2

Because when you’re showing up and starting conversations, you need to have capacity to be there with your community. Hold those conversations, continue those conversations. And if there is something in particular that’s quite vulnerable for you and it makes you feel quite tender, you might need support in the background to help you through it. So in my case, that would be my partner who gives the best cuddles in the world. My cats, also my therapist. If there is something that I’ve shared and then there’s been a less than quite unsavory response, let’s just say. It can be very, very activating if not triggering. And so me having that home support like with my, with my partner and with my therapist, if it extends to like if I actually need her, then you need to have all of these like things in place in order to ensure that when you do show up, you’re there to stay and not just to kind of have a flash in the pan moment like show up, goodbye, show up, goodbye. 

[00:15:23] Speaker1

I got you. Okay. So that that makes sense. And thank you for clarifying that. So what that brings up for me as well. A lot of times when we are quote unquote, putting ourselves out there, how do you define sort of drawing that line of the types of things that one is willing to share? You know what I mean? Because yeah, the way the way that I’m hearing this and what the way I’m picturing it. Of what you’re saying is that when we put ourselves out there and we share something that maybe that’s vulnerable because that. You know, or maybe it’s it’s it’s maybe it goes against what other people are, quote unquote, preaching and the online space. Right. And then there’s a backlash, if you will, from it. 

[00:16:14] Speaker2


[00:16:14] Speaker1

Is. It almost like when we have that backlash to your point and maybe I’m just echoing what you’re saying here, is we we might not be prepared for that sort of backlash. And if we don’t have the support and systems in place to be able to deal with that, it might hold us back from doing more of that in the future. So where do we kind of draw the line or do we draw a line? 

[00:16:42] Speaker2

Oh, yes, I would highly recommend having a line. So something that I teach my clients is called The Circles of Intimacy. So if you think of three concentric circles, so if you think of like a bull’s eye, for example, so in the center there are people who are there who you can show up in any way and you know, you’d be safe with them. So it’s kind of like that. You tell them the complete story, everything, and you have no fear of being judged or ridiculed in any way. So I know which people in my life I place in that sense that’s very center. And then as I report outwards, I noticed that I kind of take layers off the story depending on what kind of space I’m in. So, for example, I’m personally very discerning of who I show up with and which communities I go inside to speak about. I really need to know the tone of the kind of conversations that they have, who they support, and what kind of human rights issues do they support? Where’s the evidence of that? So there’s a lot of research beforehand, I guess, to kind of like it will inform me of like where I place them in these circles of intimacy. So if they’re on the outer circle, I won’t reveal very tender information because I know that that space is probably not safe enough to hold me there. However, the more discerning I am and the more kind of like ticks off the box, I guess that they have, then I know that I can share more and more knowing that there may be a conflict like, you know, maybe some backlash, as you said. Right. But I know that I would be able to handle it. So it’s really just kind of understanding your stories through your lenses and layers and just kind of allocating who gets to see what and when.

[00:18:29] Speaker1

Why do we want to? And maybe this might be an obvious question, but I need to ask it because, you know, like, I’ll be honest, like, this is something that I have struggled with over the past almost eight and a half years in having an online business of like share. Like how vulnerable do I allow myself to be? This podcast here is, you know, my biggest platform and I feel like I should be more quote unquote, should be more active on a platform like Instagram, for example. But right now, I’m not that’s going that’s going to change, right as it were, recording this. But this is my biggest platform here with the show, and I feel like I just honestly scratched the surface on the vulnerability of the types of things that I think or that I’m doing or or what have you. Do you feel like there’s. An inauthenticity for people who are deciding not to go to that level, if you will, of vulnerability on their. We’ll call it outward platforms, whether it’s social media, whether it’s a podcast, whether it’s YouTube videos or whatever it might be. Does that make sense? 

[00:19:47] Speaker2

Yeah, completely. And of course, I’m only sharing from my perspective here. I personally don’t think it’s inauthentic. I think it’s actually quite wise to be discerning which parts of your story you share and again with who and where it is. Because you we can never know who’s actually really watching us and listening to us and reading the things that we write. All of that, because we don’t know that there’s an element of unknown that we acknowledge exists in our minds. And so, of course it makes sense for us later. As humans we are like self preserving people. Like, you know, self-preservation really kicks in if we feel unsafe to be able to do this. So it really and I also think that is important to share here that sometimes oversharing can also be harmful if the person does again, they don’t have the support and systems in place and also for the audience as well. So this is where my trauma sensitive training is coming in here. For example, if a client of mine is oversharing to a point where those details can cause re traumatization for themselves and or secondary traumatization for those who are listening, then that’s actually more harmful. You know. So I actually think that is wise to be mindful of what we share and to which detail, which degree if we don’t have that support in place, nor do we have that foresight of knowing what harm can be caused as a result of sharing. 

[00:21:21] Speaker1

Can you give a I mean. We’re like, we’re going deep here, which I love. And I knew that we would do that. Having you on, I love it. This is something that frankly isn’t spoken about a lot. And, you know, in in it’s just came to me here as we’re talking about this, like this is a way like I’m putting myself out there to have this type of conversation on the podcast and I’m completely fine with it, right? Like I want to be doing it. Otherwise we wouldn’t, you know, like we wouldn’t be having the conversation. I think this is stuff that that so many people need more insight on in education and so forth. Now, you mentioned the trauma sensitive coaching. Can you can you can you I don’t mean like a name anybody, but like a specific type of example where we might be sharing something for whatever reason it might be, that is either sort of rehashing our own trauma or and or, you know, bringing up. Maybe traumatic experiences for our for our audience, for our listeners, for our readers, or whatever it might be. 

[00:22:37] Speaker2

Hmm. I can absolutely use myself as an example here because this is like before I had my training, I used to think that it was purely brave to be able to speak about my trauma. Right. I thought it was an indication of healing, and maybe it is. However, when I look back in retrospect, there are so many contextual trigger warnings that I totally missed the mark on for other interviews where I actually went deeper into the details of what actually happened. So again, at the time, I was under the impression that it was bravery, it was courageous to talk about it. But actually when I think about it. When I look back at those interviews, a part of me kind of shrinks inside. It almost makes me want to hide because I know that that was wrong. Now, when I look back and when I look back in retrospect, so I will do an example here of what to do and not what not to do. Because I will say that I just spoke about, you know, it’s getting super matter here. So I mentioned very briefly earlier that I’m a trauma survivor. 

[00:23:48] Speaker2

Right. So I’m providing a trigger warning right now. What I’m about to mention in the next couple of seconds, a minute or so, there are some references of sexual assaults and aggression. And so if anyone who’s listening right now. Where this topic is, 10 to 4, you either skip ahead or take a moment to stop listening to recenter yourself and ground yourself. So, Rick, that’s something that I did not do for a couple of interviews where I used to share a lot more about that story, that part of my life that has absolutely informed why I do what I do today. So in the past, it was just a part of my story that made so much sense, why it led me to this point, why I help people who are underestimated, who are underrepresented because of what I’ve been through. I have this degree of empathy that I can relate to, right? But now now that I’m trained, I know to provide those trigger warnings and know not to go to a degree of detail that can cause secondary traumatization for anyone who’s listening. All right. Quantization for myself. 

[00:25:06] Speaker1


[00:25:08] Speaker2

Yeah. He’s completely gone. Yeah.

[00:25:12] Speaker1

Yeah, it totally does. Because it also what what’s coming up for me, too, is that when we are, you know, and I’ll speak from my own personal experience, you know, like the this came up recently in the past few weeks of conversations with, for example, like Erica Cordell, who’s the diversity quality inclusion consultant and coach that I’ve been working with for the past year and a half or so. You know, this whole thing about if we don’t tell, if we aren’t leading our own story or or leading the narrative, if you will, for ourselves, somebody else will tell the story or somebody else will form their opinion. I mean, everyone’s going to have an opinion, but they’ll other people will tell the story for you if you are not doing it yourself. I don’t know if I describe that correctly. And this is where sort of the struggle personally for me comes in, where I really want to balance like the whole performative, like, look at me, I’m doing this or I’m talking about this topic over here just because it’s what people, quote unquote, want to see or want to hear about. Whereas so I guess this goes back to where. How do we decide or what? How do you recommend deciding on how much to be sharing? Because people are especially these days, people are buying when they’re deciding to do business with somebody or a business. It’s you know, it’s a very personal thing, too. It’s like they want to align themselves with people, kind of, like you said before, with strong values and etc., etc.. And how do people know about those things if the, you know, the entrepreneur isn’t talking about that or isn’t sharing it or isn’t showing that they’re supporting such and such cause? Does that make sense? 

[00:27:20] Speaker2

Yeah, it makes complete sense. And this is why it’s such a nuanced thing for us to talk about, because there is no three steps to do this sort of thing and it’s really more of a personal decision. So personally, when I think of and when I, you know, when I talk to my clients about this because they’re wondering how much do I share then? And then the kind of states I kind of awesome to kind of look out for when they’re sharing are they sharing this story for in hopes of getting, you know, attention, if that makes sense, versus sharing the story from a grounded, empowered place, knowing that this part of their lives has really informed why they do what they do today. And they’re here to hold that space for other people going through the same thing. Hmm. So it’s two very different states. It’s kind of like. Do you feel like you’re chasing after people to kind of turn around and look at you? Or does it feel like, okay, I’m. I’m planted, I’m grounded here. And to all all of those who are resonant with what I’m about to share, they are more than welcome. You know, it’s a very different state to be in. So that’s what I would recommend. It’s not so much a how to, it’s more of a what to look for and what kind of energy are you bringing and what kind of intention are you bringing to the surface as you’re sharing this parts of your story? 

[00:28:51] Speaker1

And I like how you align that with choosing what you decide to share. When it aligns with how you got to where you are today and how it’s relevant to what you’re doing and that sort of thing, etc., etc.. You’re the founder of the Sustainable Visibility Movement in terms of what we’re talking about here. How do we define sustainable visibility? 

[00:29:18] Speaker2

Oh, that’s the beauty of it, is the fact that it’s there’s no singular definition. It’s something that you feel is something it’s almost like a state that you access where it feels like showing up isn’t a chore. It’s something that it may stretch you at times, but it will always be within your zone of safety. Now, I really have something to say around when people say, Oh, you’re playing it safe, though, so you need to go bigger and bolder. I really personally have a bit of a problem with that because safety is something that all of us, whether we realize it or not, something that we actually yearn for as a human being. Playing it safe is not the same as playing it small, and I feel that those two words are kind of used. And the change oddly in that particular context for sure. So sustainable visibility is when you feel like you can show up in a diverse range of ways. And your presence is what’s consistent. And by consistent, I do not mean frequency. I don’t mean you show up every day on Instagram stories or you publish a podcast like once a week or three times a week. I don’t mean consistency in that way. The consistency I’m talking about is whenever you do show up. That is the same. It stays. It’s like a constant state of calm and grounding. So when Sir Rick, for example, if you went on a hiatus for your podcast. Right, but you showed up elsewhere. And you showed up with that same energy you normally bring to those who listen to your podcast. That is the consistency that the people in my sphere of influence that they all gravitate towards because it can feel like. Like our efforts don’t matter if we don’t reach that that quota of showing up in a week, you know, in platform X and Y and Z. It can really feel like that. So sustainable visibility, again, it’s that consistency of your presence, not through frequency, but the intention you bring. 

[00:31:35] Speaker1

How do we get I mean, for for me, as I’m listening to that, it makes complete sense, but it almost sounds like the consistency of presence. For in my brain, like what’s coming up? My mind is kind of like a utopian kind of feeling or utopian kind of like because I’m like I’m very I’m I’m arch like you. I’m, I’m an introvert. I am definitely an empath. And my energy level, it’s just like everybody else goes up and down. Right. But there are a lot of times where I and I think that’s a1i mean, I’ve been podcasting now for seven. Know how long? Nine years since the middle of 2013. Is that nine years? Yeah, almost like just about nine years. But my point being is like this medium, I love it. Right. And showing up on video, for example, even though we’re on video right now, has been something I’ve really had to work on becoming more comfortable with. And but my point being is that. To have that consistency of presence. Does that mean only, quote unquote, showing up in whatever platform that is when the energy level or our centeredness, if you will, are? It is is kind of like, all right. Well, I’m at that point right now where this is the this is the level that I want to operate. So it’s quote unquote, now would be a good time to show up, if you will. Does that make sense?

[00:33:15] Speaker2

I feel like I’m getting on the same wavelength. I can see why it makes sense to show up in this grounded present way and how that will make sense. But what about when you batch in advance for the things where you may not feel it all the time, but you know you want to make sure that your content is coming out X, Y, Z. So the question here would be to ask yourself is which form of consistency does serve you, your business and your audience in the best way possible? So for some, it is that frequency type of consistency. In my audience though, it’s very different. It’s where like they are already very overwhelmed with how this there’s so much content out for them. But I’ve been told many, many times, time and time again that whenever they see me, even though it’s not every Tuesday at 6:00 pm at British Standard Time, whatever, they gravitate towards me because it’s me, right? It’s not because the content per se, but it’s because of me as the creator. So that’s what I know about my audience. So I’m not saying for everybody who’s listening right now to subscribe to this way of consistency. If that doesn’t serve you, if it doesn’t serve you, then sure, leave it. Don’t do it right. It’s whatever serves your business and your self the most. What I’ve found, Rick, is that most people who are, you know, on board with the frequency type of consistency, that’s what they beat themselves up about if they can’t keep up with it. That’s why I want to introduce this new way of thinking of consistency in case we might need to kind of take a bit from each pool, I guess, instead of one purely. 

[00:35:01] Speaker1

That makes sense. That makes sense. You know, going back to what we just were talking about there, as far as, you know, introvert, being an empath, you mentioned earlier that if I misunderstood, I apologize. But you mentioned those two qualities for yourself. Yes. That those could be attributes that people that don’t sit well with people or that you might feel like a backlash, if you will, from people. I’m just curious, like, how so? Like, are you are you saying that because you’re an empath, because you identify as being introverted, 

like just as I do. Right. Would people respond? Could why would people respond negatively to those sorts of things? Or is that not what we’re saying here? 

[00:35:49] Speaker2

Oh, no, no, no. That’s not what I was saying. What I was saying at the time when I was sharing facets of my personality, that I’m an introvert and I’m an empire, it’s that I can’t just blindly, blindly subscribe to the advice out there to consistently, quote unquote, consistently or constantly, I should say, put myself out there. Because as an introvert, that’s incredible. Gotcha. Overwhelming. And as an empath, when I’m feeling not just my own emotions, but those around me, I don’t have the capacity for all of that. So that makes that informs why my strategy needs to be slightly different than what one might suggest if the status quo of our current industry. 

[00:36:32] Speaker1

Gotcha. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. And then also just circling back on the, you know, the trauma sensitivity. Is it? I know that it’s a huge topic, but I just kind of want to and I apologize for this level of simplicity of the question in advance. But is it or can it be as simple as including that qualifier whenever we might bring up a topic that could be traumatizing or retraumatizing to our audience? Is it is that just something, you know, a practice that would be for many of us just to get into if that if a topic like that is coming up. 

[00:37:16] Speaker2

Yes. There’s often a misuse of trigger warnings that are used out there, something like, oh, trigger warning, as if like they it’s almost like an attention grabber, almost like clickbait. Especially if what’s what’s what’s provided afterwards is actually not a trigger warning at all. It’s more like, oh, what I’m about to say could be quite controversial and it may offend you. However, from what? From my training, the trigger warnings are in place to protect those who are who may consume this content. And by just giving them a heads up of what? What’s going to be covered in this content, whether it is in the form of the podcast, if it’s in the form of a video interview, the video full stop or a post, we are just giving people a heads up that, hey, son, this is this is the thing to look out for. And if that is something that is genuinely very tender for someone, they get to opt out of it instead of kind of like being blindsided by it and like, oh gosh, I didn’t expect this to happen. And then it may throw them off the entire day. We don’t know that. We will never know what harms people or what trauma they’ve been through. And we’re not here to know all of that about other people, because that would be an endless quest, right? So all we can do, our responsibility as entrepreneurs, as content creators, as hosts of podcasts, for example, is that we just give them a contextual trigger warning as a heads up to allow people that moment a chance to opt out of that content for the time being if they’re not ready to consume it. 

[00:38:54] Speaker1

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I want to come full circle as we start to wrap up here. Going back to what you were originally talking about as far as podcast guesting. Yes. And how and you said this is both an inspirational cautionary tale. Back when you were doing, you know, 101 and 30 days, right? Yes. So within the scope of everything we’re talking about here today, how might one go about? Because this is something that, you know, this is a strategy that we definitely teach within accelerator as far as visibility goes and so forth. One of the best things that you can be doing is to get on other shows. Now within the realm and scope. What we’re talking about here today, how do we leverage this or how do we take the types of things that we’re learning here today into account when we are going about trying to get on other shows?

[00:39:47] Speaker2

Ruth, this is a question that both have been asked before, and I’m grateful to be presented with the opportunity to answer it. So focus guesting. All right. So before you even consider which shows you want to be on. You might want to do that exercise that we spoke about earlier that circles the circles of intimacy. Who gets to hear which parts of your story, when and where? Because that will give you an indication of the kind of topics you won’t want to talk about, which may involve parts of those stories to be shared on a particular interview. Right. So it is the practice of discernment already ahead of time. It’s not just about whether the person who you’re considering pitching to, like if they’re in the same industry or in adjacent industry and you could be a good fit there if you’re all mindful around what kind of things you want to share, you want to go levels deeper there. What kind of values do you share, if any, and how are those values expressed and integrated into the work? Because you want to see evidence time and time again to kind of give you a green light that they are safe enough to hold that space for you as you share facets of your story that you’ve chosen them for. So that’s all before all before you can even write the pitches. Yes, which is a lot. 

[00:41:10] Speaker2

And I know it doesn’t sound like the. The most quickest thing to do, because it’s not that it really depends on what position you’re in, right, if you like. I personally have a blend of both marginalized and privileged identities, and I’m much more mindful of the marginalized parts of myself, because if that were to be given the attention and spotlight that I don’t have the support or systems for, then that can really like it can really throw me off. And it really does impact my business. Right? And so that degree of discernment is what’s important for me. So each of you who are listening right now, just decide for yourself, how discerning do you want to be? To protect yourself. Right. And then when we go into the pitch process, that’s when you want to really meet the podcaster where that. So something I learned in that one on one challenge is what I call the PR method is what I teach my students. It’s the personalization and relevancy piece of every pitch if you keep those two elements in your pitch. You’ll be more likely to succeed in your pitches than not. So keep it personal, like personalize it. So, Rick, I’ve heard you say that advice before, like don’t just reference the latest episode because that’s clearly just like the quickest and easiest and disingenuous oftentimes thing that you can do to pretend that you’re a listener. 

[00:42:38] Speaker2

No, no, no. We need to come on. We can do better. So personalized with the name, the show, and a take away that you only could know if you were to listen to the podcast. Right. It’s kind of like the little hidden gems you find in those episodes and then keep it relevant because you can have the most personalized pitch. But if it’s not relevant to the current season of conversations that that host is having, then that can only really go so far. So you absolutely need a blend of both. And then as we shift into OC, your pitch has been accepted. Now what? Right. So you want to really engage yourself with that podcast. You want to make sure you’re on the same wavelength. You want to understand that interview style. So before we we jumped on this interview today, I listen to your podcast, you know, weeks leading up to this point because I know that you interview in a way that’s very organic and you’re here to hold space. You don’t always interject, you know. So I know that about you even before we started the recording process. So it’s kind of familiarizing yourself with with the host’s interview style. And then after that you need to remember that every podcast guesting opportunity, it doesn’t stop the moment that the interview stops. Please, please, please do not kind of like. Oh, I just just don’t miss this part because every guest podcast getting opportunity can open you up to way more. 

[00:44:10] Speaker2

And it really does depend on how you treat the host after the interview as well. So share their interview. Like, stay in their circle, keep them top of mind, recommend them for things. Because I often hear this transactional way of podcast guesting, which is what I’m like a bit guilty for with the whole one on one challenge. That’s quite a cautionary tale now because I couldn’t like, I couldn’t manage a keeping up with like 100 people and like, you know, being a genuinely good person to like, hold my relationships with them. I couldn’t do that. That’s why I don’t say it as an inspirational tale. Now, it’s a cautionary tale that there’s so much more that comes with podcast guesting when we acknowledge the opportunities that it could open for us because it’s a relationship based way of being visible. And so there are people at the end of the day, every podcast there is a human being. And so if you incorporate all of those elements and considerations and acknowledge the fact that podcasts they live on for so long, you don’t always have to be visible and like getting on your shows all the time, just repurpose and reshare ones you’ve already been on. You know, and that is how you can be sustainably visible with podcasting. 

[00:45:28] Speaker1

Why don’t more people do what you just said? Like, it just blows my mind. I get multiple pitches a day. 90% of them are from PR people or agencies. And you would think that PR agencies would understand this. But it no, it’s all about their guest. It’s all about them. It’s all about their book. It’s all about this person as accomplished this well, all well and good. But I really don’t care how. Like, what are you pitching that is beneficial to my like this is a whole soapbox thing. Like, so. So you all for everybody listening right now? What McKay does what? Just what? Just what? What? Oh, I’m just like, this is. This is it right here. It sounds like a lot of work, but it is. And that’s what gets you on other shows rather than just like, you know. Hello, host of Art of Online Business Podcast, you know, hello, Mike. I’ve gotten that many times or like different names, you know, it’s like, do the work, right? Do the work. And just doing the even just even like two things of what you just said. Make a will like separate people right from everybody else out there. But yeah, it’s do the work up front and you are going to be more successful having that sustainable visibility as a as a result of it. 

[00:47:00] Speaker2


[00:47:01] Speaker1

And I just think that as you were talking about that I’m like, I’m going to cut this piece of content up from this from this audio, from this video. And this, too, will be a standalone piece of content because that is that is gold. So McKay, thank you so much for sharing your expertize in this and being open and willing to talk about all these types of things. Because as I said in the very beginning and we were talking about this is not this is these types of topics are not discussed enough. And I think that they 100% need to be far talked about far more, especially in our online space. So where can people connect with you? Where can they learn more about your program and all the work that you’re doing? 

[00:47:48] Speaker2

Thank you so much. First of all, I’m so grateful that you are willing to have this conversation because that says a lot about you, so much like how you were watching me for a couple of years. I’ve also been watching you doing my degrees of discernment work as well. And so that’s why like today is come around full circle. So thank you. First and foremost, for those who are interested in staying connected and learning from my podcast casting like even actually Rick is a part of this resource that I’m about to mention is called Be Our Podcast Guest and it’s where I’ve olives podcasters, what they look for in guests. So don’t just take it from me and my experience here from other podcasters who are obviously on the same wavelength. All of us chime in from different perspectives and different layers and everything, but we’re pretty much all saying the same thing is that we really want guests who care about our work and care about our audience as a result. So if you want to hear this out of the box piece of advice from 25 podcasters, then you can go to make a forward slash 25. That’s 25 experts, which I’m sure will be in the show notes. You’ll find me on Instagram the most out of all the social platforms, so just find me a mic. I sang my G and if you’d like to learn more about how you can work with me, you can go straight to my website, make a CENTCOM with the same spelling, but without the hyphen. But that’s just just for ease of comfort. And yeah, so regardless of whether we connect or not, I hope that this interview has been super helpful for you today. And Rick, thank you so much for being here for it. 

[00:49:25] Speaker1

Absolutely. Thank you, McKay. And I just want to just spell your name again for everybody listening right now. And of course, I’ll link everything up in the show notes for today’s episode that we’ve been talking about here today. So it’s MRI, k e s a And again, I’ll link all of all the links up that make just mention on the show notes or. Rick Thank you again, McKay. I really appreciate you coming back on the show or coming on the show. I feel like we’ve been on the show because we’ve been talking about having you on the show before, and I want to have you back on. I’ll tell you right now and have you back on, because, again, this is a topic that we should be talking more about, and we’re going to continue to have this conversation here on the show. So thank you again. 

[00:50:07] Speaker2

Thank you. I’d be totally honored to come back as well. 

[00:50:10] Speaker1

Hey, my friend, if you are an established online course creator, you’re an online coach. Maybe you have a membership and you’re looking to grow and scale your business, but you really don’t really know what steps to be taking. You’re likely overwhelmed, and you don’t have the systems and processes in your business to be hustling less in your business because you’re already working enough right now. Right? How do we grow and scale your business to refer to today’s episode in a sustainable way and do it with less hustle? Right. It’s all about creating more profit, more revenue, more impact with less hustle. We have a very limited number of spots available in my accelerator coaching program, which is where we help establish online course creators, coaches, membership owners. Do exactly that. Take your business to the next level, whatever the next level is for you, and to help you create more profit, more impact with less hustle. And we do that by optimizing your systems and processes, optimizing your sales and marketing and optimizing your mindset. So if you would like to apply its application only, go to Rick Mul Forward Accelerator and we’d love to review your application. Hop on, hop on a hop on the zoom hop on the zoom with you and see if we are mutual fit for accelerate. Look forward to reviewing your application over there. Thank you, my friend for tuning in today. Appreciate you as always. Until next time, be well and we’ll talk to you soon. 


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