Many entrepreneurs struggle with sharing their value. Often, they do more harm than good when they talk. The main reason for all their struggles typically points back to the fact that entrepreneurs forget to use their voice as a marketing tool and that they don’t really connect to their audience.
In this powerful episode, Heather Sager, a certified speaker and coach, reveals the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs make when they articulate their value to the world. Heather also shares unforgettable tips for articulating your value through the bridge metaphor, authentic speaking, and audience guidance.
If you're eager to attract more clients and effectively communicate your value, you don't want to miss this episode. Tune in now and learn from the amazing Heather Sager.
In this episode you'll hear:
- The most obvious mistakes entrepreneurs make when speaking
- The bridge metaphor in marketing and how it can help you guide your audience
- The power of speaking with authenticity
Timestamps:
00:00 — Introduction
00:39 — All about Heather Sager
04:17 — The need for entrepreneurs to be intentional and strategic in speaking
07:36 — Choosing the stage that helps you excel
12:34 — Experts struggle with the curse of knowledge
18:58 — “Bridge metaphor in marketing and Scaling the mountain”
29:27 — Validating, challenging, and questioning marketing strategies effectively
32:59 — Trust expert advice, back it up
36:48 — How to Master the art of effective communication
41:30 — Why you don’t have to be perfect but just be authentic
45:06 — How you can connect and follow Heather Sager
Links & Resources:
Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie's Links:
Heather Sager's Links:
- Download Heather Sager’s Cheatsheet:19 Simple Phrases that Convert
- Visit Heather’s website
- Follow Heather on Instagram
- Listen to Hint of Hustle Podcast
Please support the podcast by giving an honest Rating/Review for the show on iTunes!
Heather Sager [00:00:00]:
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Well, most experts, we actually forget the granular small pieces of what the beginners are to our topic and we have a hard time meeting them where they are and talking about the things that are actually relevant. Said another way, the pressing issues they're faced with. This is where a lot of objections come in when people are like, I'm not ready for your stuff because we are not even aware of those things anymore. So how we communicate, whether we're talking about more advanced level strategies or really simple things, we have a hard time explaining what we do in a way that others resonate with.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:00:39]:
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Hello again. And if you're just hearing my voice for the first time, my name is Kwadwo and I've coached with Rick inside of his accelerator for a number of years. While he's on his sabbatical, I'll be filling in for him on some podcast episodes. And this episode is powerful. I interview Heather Sager. She's a speaking and sales coach and the creator of the podcast Hint of Hustle, which is a Top 2% rated Apple podcast. She's spoken on more than 1000 stages all over the world and she's works with the likes of you will know some of these folks tarzan Kay, Chris Jones and Zafira Rajan. Now, her jam is helping online business owners confidently talk about their expertise in a way that attracts clients without second guessing what they say and sounding like everyone else online or getting weird when they sell. You are going to want to listen to the whole episode. In fact, I guarantee that you will listen to this a second time. It is that good. She coaches me through this very powerful and simple to do framework and you'll be able to apply it to yourself. Super applicable. If you ever live stream, make Instagram stories, record YouTube videos, or even speak on real stages. If you need to use words to communicate what you do and you're passionate about to sell things to serve more people, this is the episode for you. And now, let's get started. Welcome to the show.
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Heather Sager [00:02:18]:
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Hey, Kwadwo.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:02:19]:
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And so what struck me most when I met you back in Phoenix, what was it like two months ago, was that you said most online entrepreneurs super struggle with sharing their value and articulating their value and they do more harm than good when they talk.
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Heather Sager [00:02:38]:
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It's kind of a bold statement I made.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:02:42]:
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Oh yeah.
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Heather Sager [00:02:43]:
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Here's the thing. I am a big believer. I mean, as a speaking coach, obviously, I'm obsessed with helping people speak better, more effectively, specifically in a way that actually creates results for their business. And what I find is a lot of people forget this whole gift that we have and using our voices talking, we kind of take it for granted because it's been something we've mostly been doing our entire lives. So when we start our businesses, we obsess over other things like how to write copy, how to design a web page, how to do landing pages, how do I build a funnel? Like, the list goes on and on. So we just ignore this gift that we have, our voice, how we articulate our ideas, our expertise, the value of our services. And what happens for most entrepreneurs when they step up to a metaphorical microphone or a literal microphone? They just start talking. And I believe that your voice is your best marketing tool in your business. But every time you open your mouth, you're either adding value to your brand or you're eroding the value of your brand. And what I find is most entrepreneurs do not realize that they're actually eroding their brand value by overspeaking complicating their expertise and just talking about their stuff in a way that doesn't really captivate their ideal clients. It creates more confusion.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:04:02]:
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Jeez well, naturally, I want to be selfish and say, well, where can improve? Heather but first, where do you see the biggest improvements can be? Like, what do you usually end up talking to your clients about?
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Heather Sager [00:04:17]:
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Yeah, this one is going to be shockingly obvious, but everybody misses it. Most entrepreneurs want to talk about what they want to talk about. They want to talk about what they know. They want to share their best tips, their best tactics. If I had a dollar for every time a client had the goal of, I want my talk to be tangible, that's what everyone says. Because we don't want to be lumped into the fluffy, rah, raw talks that are a waste of, quite frankly, our time. A lot of free webinars or free stuff that we go through, we don't really get a lot of value, so we want to be more tangible. So what happens is experts, they start speaking like they're speaking to their peers. They start talking about the expert level of their topic. And the hard part is, when you're speaking in that way, your audience, you're going over their head. And even if they're smiling and nodding, and even if they give you praise, like, oh, that's really interesting. Side note, my biggest thing is, like, the worst compliment I can get, knowing that my talk was ineffective, was when somebody leaves my session saying, that was so interesting because what that did was it leaves the topic in the room, on the table. They're not taking any action from it. So, coming back to your question, the most important thing that we have to do to be more effective in our talks is answer. The question is, what am I trying to achieve through this talk or through this video or through this live or through this podcast? Whenever we step up to a microphone, we have the chance to educate an audience, inspire an audience, but we're moving them to act in some way. So most entrepreneurs, they take these opportunities and they're unintentional with them. They just show up to educate. But there actually should be a strategic goal. We have to be more intentional with why we're speaking, where we're speaking, and what we're talking about.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:06:10]:
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Wow. So of all the places that we're speaking, if that's online, Instagram, Facebook, live streaming, on stage, sometimes, on podcasts many times, or even like YouTube videos, is there one place that we can focus on to apply all this good stuff?
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Heather Sager [00:06:29]:
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I love this question. Okay, because I think a lot of people think, all right, there has to be one platform, if you will, or one type of stage that is the quote unquote best. And I say the best stage for you to get better at is the one that you actually enjoy. So what I find is there's kind of two different types of people who are drawn to speaking. And let me just put this disclaimer in here. When I talk about speaking, I realize that most people think of a live physical stage. We envision like a Ted Talk or we envision a big conference, something like that, and that is speaking on a stage. But in our world online, we have stages available to us all the time. So, as you just said, we have live video, we have podcasting. It's an audio stage, but we're also doing video right now. You have your own stages, you have other people's stages. There's all these places that you can show up and speak. And what we got really excited talking about the stage thing. Bring me back to your question.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:07:26]:
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My question was just of all the platforms that we are involved in as a 21st century online entrepreneur between social media and all this.
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Heather Sager [00:07:36]:
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Yes, okay. So I got excited there, which happens a lot of times too. So there are two types of entrepreneurs. When we show up on these stages, some people do really, really well, kind of thinking on their feet. They love that live element. They love that pressure of I'm live, so I don't have to overthink it. I'm going to show up, I'm going to deliver my brilliance, hopefully with a plan, as we said, be more intentional. But then there are other people that feel way more comfortable if they have the safety net of being pre recorded, meaning like YouTube or doing your own podcast, where you have the ability to come back later and edit it out. And I think there's this belief that one is better than the other. But I recommend that people choose the type of stage that's going to help them excel. So if you freak out, for example, from live video, or the ability that you can't have a do over or there's no editing if that freaks you out, don't start there. Don't use that as your primary place to practice. Go somewhere where you can actually have that pre recorded element and have that safety net to edit. But if you this is me, for example, I freak out on the pre recorded because it puts all this pressure on me. For some reason, just knowing that I have a do over, it makes me go all weird and fumbly, and I'm not as great I am now. But at the beginning, I was terrible with pre recorded video. So I actually thrive in the live element because I can think on my feet. I like that pressure of being live, and it makes me more authentic in how I communicate. So what's the best stage to do it? Honestly, it really depends on your personality and which one's more attractive. But one of the things that helped me really well was practicing on what I'll say is a private stage. What I mean by that is I was really good on public stages. I did public speaking for the last 20 years. I was speaking on stages all over the world. But when I started my online business and I had to look at a camera lens like I'm doing right now, I could not think, I could not function. My storytelling skills went out the window. I had this weird eyebrow, my face looked weird. Everything was all wrong. So I wasn't ready to actually be public facing into the world. I was embarrassed. It was just awkward. I had to get the Rambles out and kind of get that awkwardness out in private. So what I did was just opened up my recording software that came with my logitech webcam, and I just clicked go on the webcam recording onto my computer. And I would be like, Hello, I look awkward on video. And I would talk to myself. And sometimes it was so stupid, and it was literally just pointing out what was in the room around me or how the set looked. And I did that for two minutes a day for 30 days. And eventually, after a few days, I started asking myself, all right, what would be a question someone might have related my topic? And I just started practicing with no posting of the video. Nobody like, it wasn't for anyone else but me, but it was to build my own confidence, thinking and speaking into a camera. And that is a skill that so many people struggle with. But they try to start by doing live video or podcasting or Instagram stories, and they feel awkward, probably look awkward. So start in private if you need to, because the most important thing here is speaking is a skill. And every skill requires practice.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:11:03]:
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Boom. There you go. And I'm sure that so many people can relate to the hurdle that is speaking into a camera lens, because it sucks your soul and you're just ultra, especially if you have one of those flip open screens and you can see yourself and you're just ultra aware of all the little twitches that your face does. Like when I started Heather back on YouTube on another venture that I had, people that watched my first 20 videos were like, Quaijo, you look so scary, and you never blink. And you know the reason I never blinked was because I had so many takes, because, like you said, I kept fumbling over my words, and the edits were so harsh, and I never blinked because I was absolutely petrified. So I'm going to rewind to when I first met you back at the Mastermind, and something you had said, which was that we just all need to shift the way we approach verbal communication to our audiences. And then I'm going to tie that into you just told us that at the end of a speech, if somebody says, well, that was interesting, then you have absolutely failed on your mission speaking.
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Heather Sager [00:12:18]:
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Okay, I wouldn't say absolutely failed.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:12:21]:
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All right, well, please share a little more because I know everything you told me before was super powerful, and I want to just be super selfish and have you coach me through some things. But first, share a little more about that.
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Heather Sager [00:12:34]:
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So one of the things that all experts struggle with this is like a common knowledge across the board. I cannot remember the psychologist who came up with this term, but there's something called the curse of knowledge, and we all all struggle with it. Okay? So essentially what this is is when we learn something new. I'm going to get into brain science here, and I'm not going to make it super techy. So forgive me for oversimplifying if you're a geek like me who really loves these things, but we're going to use totally pedestrian language here. So in our brains, when we learn a new skill, our brains are firing off these different connection pathways for how to remember how to do that skill. So let's say, for example, we all remember when we all learned how to drive. When you learned how to drive. Remember that the sweat you would get, like holding the keys to unlock the car door. When I learned how to drive, you still had to unlock a car door, like, manually with the key you slide in, right? You had to actually insert the key, start the ignition. You had to think, okay, I have to put the car in reverse. I have to release the emergency brake. Okay? I need to check my surroundings. I need to make sure that I'm in reverse so I don't hit the garage wall in front of me. There's all these things you have to actively think about. Your brain is literally like lining up, all firing off all these tiny little steps that you take when you drive. Fast forward five years, ten years into your driving. Do you think about any of those things anymore? No. Like, you jump in your car, you're not even thinking. You might even be hooked up to Bluetooth, taking a call on your way to a coffee shop to go to another meeting. Maybe you're scarfing down your sandwich and driving with one knee. I'm not here to judge. But the point is you're not thinking about where do I check my rear view mirror when I'm doing the turn signal? Am I at the right proper degree for the parking spot? You're not thinking about any of those things. They're all ingrained in just how you drive. And what's happened in your brain is your brain has actually learned to take shortcuts. It no longer has to remember the step of unlocking the car, turning on the ignition, putting it into drive. Those steps have actually been erased, if you will, from your brain. And your brain just now goes, start the car or go into drive down the road. It's ahead. Okay. Now, how does this relate to you as an expert? Well, most experts, we actually forget the granular small pieces of what the beginners are to our topic and we have a hard time meeting them where they are and talking about the things that are actually relevant. Said another way, the pressing issues they're faced with. This is where a lot of objections come in when people are like, I'm not ready for your stuff, because we are not even aware of those things anymore. So how we communicate, whether we're talking about more advanced level strategies or really simple things, we have a hard time explaining what we do in a way that others resonate with. This is one of the things I work with a lot of people who are actually experts in marketing, whether that's you with Facebook ads, whether you have people who do business strategy. I work with copywriters, I work with people who do Instagram marketing, people who are experts at teaching other people how to do this, yet they get so frustrated because they can't figure out their own message for themselves. And it's 1000% because of this thing called the curse of knowledge. So if anyone listening is going, I struggle to talk about my stuff, or how do I do this? In a way that gets people interested and excited but actually drives results. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not terrible at it. It's not that your services are bad or any of these other dramatic things that we tell ourselves. It's just the sheer fact that you don't see it because of the metaphor. Have you heard before you can't read the label from inside the jar. You need to have someone be able to walk you through what are those elements that really speak to your ideal client, where they are in the journey? And then how do you step into that language? Talk there knowing. The hard part is people think that's so basic. I wouldn't want to speak about that. But the hard part is we have to be super simple and basic in what we talk about in order for it to resonate.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:16:47]:
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Dang, I don't even know what to say after that. Can you help me out as a Ads manager of how do I talk and not talk over the heads of my potential clients.
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Heather Sager [00:17:02]:
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But, okay, let's do a really simple exercise here because I think this will be really powerful for people, because everyone is like, OK, no one wants to say, Heather, that's really interesting because I just told you, do not tell me that was really interesting. Right? So let's talk about okay, so this makes sense, right? I'm nodding my head. All right, I follow what you're saying, but I'm trying to figure out how does this apply to me? How do I see something that I can't see? And the word I'm going to give here that is going to transform the way you communicate is very simple, but it's the word context. This is something that I do exceptionally well, that I teach my clients how to do well is how do you create context for what you talk about? Context said a different way is how the heck does this apply to me? How does this relate to me in my life right now? How does this relate to my current problem? How does this relate to what I want? And if you can get good at creating context, the more powerful context you create, the more powerful your message will stick with the person listening. So let's just do it. Give me a silly example here, but Quajo, what's something that you like talking about? That's one of your favorite tips or one of your favorite topics that you really enjoy speaking about when you guest on other people's podcasts or maybe when you do like, a live or a webinar. What's just one specific topic?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:18:21]:
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The right way to test your ads.
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Heather Sager [00:18:23]:
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Okay. The right way to test your ads. Okay. This is a really great example. So when we talk about there being a right way to do something or our favorite way or the top way or a way, right. What we want to think about is how does this apply to the person? So by the word the right way tells me that there's a wrong way. Fair assessment. Okay. And it's the wrong way how most people do it.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:18:46]:
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Yeah, cool.
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Heather Sager [00:18:47]:
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Okay, I don't know if this is going to overwhelm everyone or blow your freaking mind, but can I give you a little formula here around an easy way to create context?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:18:56]:
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Let's go.
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Heather Sager [00:18:58]:
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Okay, I've never given this away on a podcast before, so this is going to be super juicy, and I'm very so, okay, so what you can do is you can flip the script on what you want to talk about and let me back up here and actually create some context. Very, very meta. So what happens is when we're speaking to our audiences, Quajo, this is what I taught you at our Mastermind in Arizona. Most people have you ever heard of the bridge metaphor in marketing? Right? You're trying to cross people past this invisible bridge. It's what a lot of other marketers talk about is you're trying to create this gap, or you're trying to create this connection for your audience around where they are and where they want to go. And the false assumption around this idea of creating a bridge is that with a bridge, you assume that people can see the other side, meaning that they're standing on one side of, let's say, a giant river, and what they want is on the other side, and there's this big gap in between. And it's your job as the educator to help them cross that bridge. Well, the big assumption, which we all know what happens when we make assumptions, is that they can actually see the other side. And the hard part is, while some people are like, oh, I would love to have effective Facebook ads, the reality is your client doesn't actually know what that entails. They don't really understand the detail behind that. They know, like, ultimately, I would like for I don't know, I would like to drive more leads into my business. But maybe they're not thinking, well, are just leads in my business great, or do I want quality leads of actual buyers? There might be some more sophisticated questions that you ask people right on your discovery calls, but they might not be thinking about that right now. They might be just thinking, I need leads. I need leads. I've been told I need leads. So it's not really a bridge I tell my clients. It's actually a mountain in between you and your clients, and that mountain you're on one side with. Here's the happy results that you can get. Here's the transformation that you want. You see so clearly what's possible for them, but they're standing on the other side going, mother frick Quaido. I can't figure out the dashboard in Meta. I do not understand. People keep saying, go through and do custom audiences. Like, what the heck does that mean? They keep saying, it's so simple. It's so simple, but am I a dummy? Because it is not that freaking simple. So they have their own perceptions of these blocks. And we keep thinking, oh, you just have to get past that part, because the next nine steps, that's where the magic happens. You see this dichotomy between what happens, between what we know they ultimately want, but where they're living right now. So if you're listening, I want you to imagine on a sheet of paper, we have two little stick figures. One on the left, sad face. That's your ideal person that you want to help. And then on the right, happy face that's you maybe you have a little crown on, and you're like, over here, this is where you want to be. It's great. In the middle, I want you to imagine a mountain is drawn between you. So said differently, a triangle or a pyramid. So what we have to do is, as we talk about our business, we have to help them climb the mountain. And in order for us to do that, what most people do is we just shout louder from our side of the mountain. We give them more facts, we give them more stats, we give them more examples and testimonials of look at all these people who are winning. What we're doing is we're yodeling from our side of the mountain screaming, it's so great over here. And then we're wondering, but why are more people not joining? Why are more people not buying? And so what I find is the most effective way to get people to scale the mountain is you first must go to them. You have to scale the mountain and walk over to where they are and learn to speak in a way like putting your arm around their shoulder and getting them to take the first few steps to climb the mountain with you. And now, making this practical, there's specific language that you can use to help people climb the mountain. Would you like to know what some of those are?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:23:18]:
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Please.
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Heather Sager [00:23:19]:
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This is like a really simple example, but let's say let's use your example. The tip that you wanted to give people, the thing that you wanted to teach on your side of the mountain was there's a right way to do testing for ads? Right. So let's go to the other side. We can start first with what is an action that they're taking that is totally wrong? What is the mistake that they're making right now?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:23:44]:
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Focusing on the graphics or video? Like obsessing over it?
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Heather Sager [00:23:49]:
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Okay, cool. All right, so here, I'm going to coach on this real quick. One of the most important things we want to do with and action is it has to be observable, which means that if you were standing over their shoulder, at their computer, at their workday, would you be able to explicitly say, they are doing this? Mark yes or no? So what you just said, they're obsessing over their graphics for their ad, correct?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:24:15]:
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Yes. Do I have to? Mark no.
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Heather Sager [00:24:19]:
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I think it's kind of gray, right? Because what does obsessing mean? Obsessing is an internal thing that happens, right? Obsessing is kind of what's happening in our brain. So externally, what would they be doing that would indicate that they're obsessing?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:24:38]:
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Planning out what their graphic so designing their graphics in canva for too long, or that's it.
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Heather Sager [00:24:45]:
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Do you see how simple that was? You're like that's. Too simple. That's dumb. Like, no. Yes, that's it. So what you could say know, okay, let's say you're on a podcast Quajo and somebody's going, what is the number one thing that you wish people took away from? Wish they knew about Facebook ads. And you said, oh, I wish people knew that. There is a right way to test. You would state that, and then you would pause and say, one of the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to Facebook ad is say it spending.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:25:17]:
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Too much time in Canva to get their graphics absolutely right.
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Heather Sager [00:25:20]:
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Yes. Okay, so perfect. So that's step one is we're going to declare the action, and it has to be obvious.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:25:26]:
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Like I said at the beginning of this episode, I've worked with Rick for several years and as you're clearly aware, I am a Facebook Ads Manager. Which means if you need help because you're stuck in Facebook Ad Manager and can't get your ads to work right and feel like you're just throwing money away or you want me to maybe manage your ads so you can get more quality leads and have more opportunity to work with people and serve them with your passion. Then go to Quajo.com Quayjo.com, fill out a contact form there and we can see how I can best help you. I also could jump on a strategy call with you. We can dive into your funnel, figure out what steps need to be tweaked so that your funnel converts better and your ads perform better. That is what I happily do for clients, and I would be honored to have the opportunity to serve you in that way. Now back to the episode.
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Heather Sager [00:26:22]:
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Now, step two is we're going to state the thought behind the action. So what are they thinking? Like, why are they spending so much time in Canva? What's the thought in their head that's causing them to obsess and say all this time in Canva?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:26:38]:
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Oh, that's easy. Because they're thinking that because we're using visual social media platforms that they have to have a pretty graphic to stop the scroll. They're thinking that the more effort they put into their graphic, the better their ads will perform.
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Heather Sager [00:26:53]:
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Okay, that is beautiful. Did you see how that just rolled right off of your tongue?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:26:57]:
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Yeah.
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Heather Sager [00:26:58]:
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Okay, so you stated the action the action mistake that they're making is they're spending way too much time in Canva. The thought behind it is that, well, of course I do my graphics have to be beautiful because it's going to be on a social platform and that's what captures people's eyes. Which side note that sounds very logical, right? Okay, pause. I'm going to go very meta and actually do this right here. One of the biggest mistakes that I see people make when they're calling out mistakes for others is they call it a mistake that makes their ideal client feel like crap for making the mistake.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:27:33]:
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Oh, no.
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Heather Sager [00:27:34]:
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Okay. No, you're doing good. You're actually doing good because we're not making them feel like crap. And here's what I mean by this. If we were to do this in a way that would make our ideal client feel like crap, is saying something like one of the biggest mistakes, it just irks my whatever is that people spend so much time in Canva because they're, like, obsessed with it. They love the pretty stuff. They just want to be in. Canva all the time and kind of like poking fun of somebody who enjoys canva. Now, you would never be snarky about it. There are some people that are kind of snarky, but they don't realize that they're actually offending their ideal client who enjoys being on canva. Or maybe they think that that's where their value lies. You don't want to offend your ideal client. What we want to do is help them feel okay with the idea that, oh my gosh, I didn't know that that was a mistake. We want them to make them feel like, oh, that's why oh, okay, I don't feel bad for doing it. But then we're going to equip them with new knowledge so they can choose differently. So what we just did was step one is we call out the observable action they're taking. That is a mistake. Step two is we state the thinking behind it. That, quite frankly, is very logical. Step three is we're going to validate that thinking. So Quaijo, why does it make perfect sense that they would be spending so much time creating these beautiful graphics in Canva?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:28:56]:
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Well, because graphics take effort and nobody wants to look at ugly things. And so if they have a bit of canvas skills, then it does make sense. The more effort you put into making it look pretty prettier graphic, you get more people want to look. It makes perfect sense.
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Heather Sager [00:29:12]:
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So that line right there, the prettier graphic, the more people want to look, or even what you said earlier around most of our social media platforms have been deemed as an ecstatic visual platform. So it makes perfect sense that we would want our ad graphics to look beautiful.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:29:27]:
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Right.
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Heather Sager [00:29:27]:
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What we're doing is we're making it okay that they've made that mistake. We're not making them feel bad for being dumb or wasting their time or whatever other thing. Is this making sense? Think about that. Have you ever had that experience before when you've been listening to someone and you actually feel bad when they tell you what you've been doing wrong or you feel guilty or you just have this sting of like, oh, that didn't feel good? Have you ever been called out like that? Yeah. And being called out is not a bad thing. But we all know this experience when someone kind of like, it just doesn't sit right. So my method that I do action thought and then validate and in your validate, what we want to do is use some kind of third party reason for why it makes perfect sense that they're thinking for that. It doesn't mean that we're not going to push them to think differently or do differently. But what we're doing is we're meeting them at the base of the mountain of where they are. We're wrapping our arm around their shoulder and they're saying, we see you. We get it. This is why you see marketers say it's not your fault. You haven't been taught this. That is that Arm wrap around that validation. And now they're nodding their head, going, okay, I'm listening. What's next? Okay, so we have action thought behind the action and validation. Now, what we have to do action, thinking, validation. Now what we have to do is we have to challenge their thinking. Now, this is the thing that is the most challenging for people is how do we challenge someone without being so obvious or being telling them that they're like a dummy? What we do is typically the challenge comes with posing a question. So the question could be something like for you is around the testing piece is, okay, something as simple. I don't know if this is the right answer, but the question is, when it comes to ads, is the graphic the most important part or are there other elements that actually statistically show lead to higher conversions?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:31:40]:
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Well, good question. I'll just take that word for word then.
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Heather Sager [00:31:43]:
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Yeah. So you see how what I'm doing is I'm provoking a question to have them rethink their life choices in this situation of my time choices. Right. And it doesn't mean that I'm saying that, oh, it has to be this way, but I'm asking a question to provoke their thinking. And sometimes you might stack a few questions. So you might say, is it like, what if I were to tell you that graphics weren't the number one contributor to conversion on ads?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:32:11]:
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Very true.
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Heather Sager [00:32:13]:
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Go ahead and steal that question and then you can follow it up with, wouldn't you want to spend your time and effort on the thing that's going to get you the best return?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:32:22]:
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Yes.
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Heather Sager [00:32:24]:
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Right. You're getting a head nod. Well, yes. You're inviting them now to your side of the mountain. So what we've done is we met them where they are. And I know I'm taking a long time to explain this. This is by design. I want you thinking about this action, thought, feeling and challenge could be summed up in a couple of sentences. This could take 20 seconds to state on a podcast. But what you're doing is you're creating context for what you're about to say, which is what should they be testing Quajo?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:32:56]:
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They should be testing ad copy first.
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Heather Sager [00:32:59]:
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Yeah. Okay. So you see, if you were to say that it would be strong because you're an expert, I believe you. I trust you. However, if I don't know exactly what to do or if I'd like, whatever, I'm going to go back to my old habits, right. And my old habits might be me living in Canva because I love pretty stuff, right. But if you are, and I'm sure you're going to back up the idea of and copy testing with some kind of rationale, you probably have some stats around that. You have some backup for your claim. If you were to help call me out for where I'm spending my time that's not effective. If you did that before you told me what to do, I would be far more likely to follow your advice and listen to you. Does that make sense?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:33:39]:
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Absolutely, yeah.
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Heather Sager [00:33:40]:
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So there's a whole seven part recipe that I teach to help people scale the mountain. On both sides, there's actually seven elements. But if you could each master those first three things, which is the what's the observable action? What's the thought behind it? What's the validation? And then focus on challenging that, which you're going to be a little clunky at first, so that'll take some practice. But you will, like leaps and bounds, be farther ahead of connecting to your ideal client than you would if you just talk about what you want to talk about. So this is about inserting a wedge of context.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:34:12]:
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The number one thing I wish people spent their time on when it came to Facebook ads was their ad copy.
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Heather Sager [00:34:19]:
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And then pause. Now go to the mistake.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:34:24]:
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But what I see in my clients is that they spend way too much time in Canva trying to perfect their graphics.
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Heather Sager [00:34:35]:
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Thinking.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:34:37]:
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Thinking that the more time they spend in Canva and the more time they spend looking at their brand guide and making sure everything is artfully and beautifully arranged, that their graphic will stop the scroll of somebody in their potential. Let's call it a prospect.
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Heather Sager [00:34:54]:
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And this makes perfect sense because and.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:34:57]:
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It makes perfect sense because Facebook and Instagram on our cell phones, they're visual platforms.
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Heather Sager [00:35:04]:
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And now.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:35:08]:
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Oh, this is hard.
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Heather Sager [00:35:09]:
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Yeah, this is a hard one.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:35:12]:
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But what if I told you that is that OK? What if I told you but what if I told you that statistically there was another component of a Facebook ad that actually was responsible for converting the most?
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Heather Sager [00:35:33]:
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Here's the I'm going to be nitpicky here just because we're on a podcast and I'm a speaking coach. What you would do is you would state that and then you would practice it to remove the extra words. So saying things like, actually, you would remove that word. And what you would want to do is learn to nail that challenge question, because nailing that question uncluttered, that's the clutch. That's what really gets people listening to you. So practicing that question of, but what if I were to tell you or what if I told you that there are seven elements I'm making this up here. I'm not a Facebook ads person. What if I were to tell you there were actually seven elements that make an effective ad and graphics were at the bottom of the list, period? The number one thing that I work on with my clients that makes the biggest difference is copy. And it's not just imagining having great copy. There is a way that we test copy that is unique to you, unique to your offer, unique to your ideal client, that helps you actually create. There's where you see, actually create something that converts. That's why testing copy, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you see how I'm stacking questions here?
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:36:44]:
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Yeah, this is great. I'm like, can I hire you to do like a video sales letter for.
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Heather Sager [00:36:48]:
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Me all day long with clients? But the part about all of this always happens to me when I'm on coaching calls in my group program. People are like, rod down, heather, what did she say? What did she say? Y'all? I've been doing this for a very long time. I've taught sales, I've taught roleplay scripting speaking. This is like baked in who I am so I could pretty much sell anything. I'll just do a few yada yada, blah blah blahs on the details of the topic. But what I've learned is I've learned a messaging pattern, a communication pattern that stacks questions, that helps people stick with you every step of the way. And it's a skill. This is the thing most people think like, oh, Heather, can you give me the script for how to say that? I just gave you a mini script in this episode. We did like an impromptu masterclass today. That mic drop. I hope you all come back and listen to this over and over again and practice those little actions, thoughts, validation, challenge. There's a few more in there, but if you just start with that, you're great. But the thing is, it isn't about having a script. It's learning how to communicate in a way that resonates with people. And that is a skill. And I'll give you a metaphor here I used recently on my podcast. Ed Milette in his book The Power of One More. It's a really good book, by the way. He used this metaphor that I thought was excellent, so I'm going to steal it. And he talked about the metaphor of a pinata and how when people have these really big goals, they think about like, oh, it's a pinata with all the kids birthday party. There's all like the good candy inside that. If I can just get the right whack of the pinata to unearth all the candy, then like, whoa, that's what we're going for. And in business, we all have our version of what our pinata is. The struggle is we're like stepping up the plate and taking all these whacks and wondering, why is the candy not falling out? Why is the candy not falling out? And I think that a huge part of getting the pinata, aka the revenue and the goals that you have for your business, having that all spill out, making it rain all your goals. There's two things, right? Number one, you have to step up to the pinata. And I think that's showing up for your business, showing up and talking to your clients. I think too many people show up on a podcast or do an instagram reel or do something one time and they're like, that didn't work. But it's like, what did you expect taking one whack randomly here and there of a pinata? Of course you're not getting the results that you want. Side note meta, that was a challenge question that I just used. So when you step up to the plate, you have to think about how many times are you stepping up to whack the pinata? Terrible metaphor here, but this means how many times are you stepping up and talking to your ideal client? Don't actually whack them. It's a metaphor. But the second thing is I want you to imagine that you have a pinata in front of you and you're hitting it with a feather. Of course, the pinata is not going to break, so I want you to think about would you be more effective whacking it with a feather, using a slinky or using a bat? What tool would you like to use to increase the likelihood that the results you want are going to spill out? And I don't know about you, but I'm taking the freaking bat.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:39:59]:
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Right?
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Heather Sager [00:39:59]:
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Well, the bat in business are the skills that you grow within yourself to ensure that the Penata inevitably spills over. And I think that the most important skill in business is communication. It is also, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, the thing we all take for granted because we all communicate all the time. We've been yammering on and on since we were kids. But there's actually an art and a science behind communication. And when you learn how to master it, so many things become possible. Objections in your business start dissolving. People feel more connected to you. You start growing an audience of really engaged people who want to work with you and buy from you. So I think if you're going to invest in one area, invest in growing your communication skills. And I think doing it on stage in the pressure cooker, that's the best way. If you can speak on stage in a keynote, you can slay everything else. But that's why I get really excited here, as you can tell. I'm excited about helping people with this area because I see the impact that it has for their business.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:41:00]:
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And if I want to because right now, Heather, I'm like, can we just make this podcast 2 hours long? And the rest of the questions that I have about how to speak better and communicate my art and my skill and my passion about Facebook ads so that I can have more, obviously, very, very selfish motives that we all have as online courses creators or service providers or but, Heather, like, where can somebody get more of this from you? At.
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Heather Sager [00:41:30]:
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Yeah. Okay. So it's no surprise here if you're listening to Bridesmaid with this episode and you're like, man, she's like, got a lot to say. But it's resonating. I love the tangible nature of it. I also love the weird kind of quirky analogies also, as you can tell in this episode, I have fumbled over my words multiple times. One point, I forgot where I was going and I had Quajo answer the question. So this idea of I keep it real and demonstrate that you don't have to be perfect when you speak, that doesn't have to impact your success, as long as you know how to communicate well. So if that if my style resonates with you, the best place to go is I have a podcast. It has over 200 episodes. It is my favorite place to hang out. And I've been told by many people that it's very bingeable and quite hilarious and very tangible. That word we used earlier. So it's called hint of hustle. And it stands on the premise that I believe that the time you spend on stage in your business should give you more freedom and flexibility off stage. So I teach people how to be more powerful with their on stage moments, whether it's virtual or in person, whether you're doing webinars lives, whatever that looks like when you show up, I'll teach you to be more effective so that you can rest and not hustle all the freaking time. So that Hint of Hustle podcast and the best place to connect with me is on my website. Heathersager.com, the mic has been dropped.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:42:47]:
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I don't know what else to say. Heather, like, thank you for sharing that fire here on the podcast in such a way that even with just the first parts about the person who I want to reach is on the other side of a mountain, and I need to take these steps to bring them to my side of the mountain like that. I'm going back before this went live and listening to it just for my own purposes. That was so good.
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Heather Sager [00:43:16]:
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You have to do that blend with your audience too. You have to bring in metaphors. This is why people say storytelling is powerful. Storytelling metaphors. There's a reason why we do that, because those are the things that stick with people. And then those more very specific, tangible things, those are the things people write down. But the stories, the energy you bring, those are the things people remember. But on that note, before I forget, I know we got super geeky and tactical today on some of those, like, here's exactly what to say. And I gave you some of those transitionary lines. I find that's a really great place to start. So if anyone was thinking like, oh, how do I like some of those statements we use today? Or some of those phrasing to help people shift to your side of the mountain, I have a cheat sheet. It's called 19 magnetic phrases that help you get that? Hell yes. When you are telling people to go sign up for your freebie or to go join your offer, or you're taking them to that next step because we're making our speaking effective. If you want the specific phrases that I use and I teach my clients, I've used pretty much all of them on today's episode. So if you felt that I have been magnetic with you and you're also going, how do I work with this chick? Go grab that free guide. It's at forward slash magnet. That is a great place to start practicing that skill of speaking.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:44:26]:
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Awesome, Heather. Thanks for taking a moment to be on this podcast. Like, one moment at a time is literally going to help so many of the listeners on this podcast over and over again as they listen. I'm sure of it because it's already helped me, and I'm about to listen to this episode more times and take notes.
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Heather Sager [00:44:47]:
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Please share your stories. I love hearing what resonated with people and how you all use it. So I'm on Instagram. If you want to connect, I'm at the Heather Sager seriously, come tell me tell me what resonated with you today. I can't wait to hear how you use it.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:45:00]:
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Awesome. Thank you, Heather, and goodbye for now.
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Heather Sager [00:45:04]:
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Bye.
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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie [00:45:06]:
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I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Heather. If you're a bit like me, you wish the episode lasted longer. Of course I'm going to link up in the Show Notes how you can work with her. If you want more of what Heather just walked me through, then the best way is inside of her Signature Talk Accelerator, because in a group setting, she does what she did with me, with you, and other people, over and over and over again. Because, as they say, repetition is the mother of learning. Signature talk accelerator with Heather Sager. Nail your message, hone your story, and craft your rock and talk in just three days. I'll link that up in the podcast show notes below. Also, if you have not yet left a rating on Apple podcasts, please take like 10 seconds to do so. It really helps the show. I would appreciate it. Rick would super appreciate it. And if you haven't subscribed yet, subscribe so you don't miss any more of these good shows with all these good strategies, please, if you're listening on Spotify, hit that yellow follow button so you don't miss any more episodes. And if you need Facebook ads help, you just heard her coach me through one of the things that I can help you with. But in addition to managing your ads, I can also get on a strategy call with you, dig into your ad campaigns, help you fix what is not working, and make better in your ads, or funnels what is already working. Thank you for listening.
